D&D 5E Goals for a party - why should they even go anywhere together?

[Lanliss]

I start by communicating two very simple premises to the players while they are thinking up their characters:

1. Your characters all know each other, have history together that we will flesh out, and trust each other at least enough to go on dangerous adventures together. They don't have to be best friends, but they've got each other's backs. Establish your character ties accordingly.

2. Regardless of alignment, class, background, backstory, race, or personal characteristics, your character has a reason to engage with the content that I am presenting. You are free to establish what reasons those are.

Then, I provide a list of "character ties" taken from Dungeon World for the players to establish with the other PCs. In some campaigns, playing up those character ties is worth Inspiration. Alternatively, if the PCs are starting at a higher level than 1st level, I ask them to choose two other PCs and briefly describe an adventure they undertook together in the past.

If you do this, everyone's goals will be in line with the adventure scenario or campaign you're presenting and the characters will have reasons to work with each other. A side benefit is that it also creates a lot of context that the players can use to make decisions for their characters and interact with the other PCs more smoothly.

Personally, I like your new backstory system better than the character ties. It makes the characters feel much more tightly knit. However, both accomplish the same goal to different degrees.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Two(ish) questions.

Why play an evil character in a non-evil party? Why would an evil character not cheat/kill/steal from the goody-two-shoe who deserves it?

Because they're your friends and your life depends on them? Evil != cartoon caricature.

If you commit evil acts, why would others in the party not stop you, have you arrested or kill you? If you never commit evil acts, why play an evil character?

Why would they not kill me? Because they are my friends and I help keep them alive. And maybe because those evil acts are still part of something "necessary" and serve to advance our common cause.

If you're stuck in a war zone behind Nazi lines with three buddies, and one of your buddies takes an unholy joy in watching Nazis go up in flames when he napalms them, and another of your buddies winces when he sees that and says a quiet prayer for their souls before pressing on--are you really going to kill the guy who's enjoying it? If so, WHY? Delighting in the torment of others is evil, but are you really going to punish that thoughtcrime by killing him?

Obviously you'd stop him if he tried to murder a bunch of little kids, but "evil" does not entail "psychotically omnicidal." You can create a personality for a PC or NPC and evaluate it as "probably evil" without making it a psychotically omnicidal evil cartoon caricature of a human being.

 

[schnee]

Here's what I did once:

Everyone wrote up a backstory, (200 words max or something like that), and then had to work together to answer these three questions our first game day:

--

You (your character):

1) Is friends with #1_________ because they know each other from _________

2) Owe #2_________ a favor because of that one time that __________

3) Respect the reputation of #3_________ because of ___________

--

We did it over pizza. They invented a wonderful web of relationships, back story additions, and ties that made it all work out.

 

[transtemporal]

Two(ish) questions.

Why play an evil character in a non-evil party? Why would an evil character not cheat/kill/steal from the goody-two-shoe who deserves it?

If you commit evil acts, why would others in the party not stop you, have you arrested or kill you? If you never commit evil acts, why play an evil character?

Evil characters are not necessarily cackling villains who pathologically murder everyone they come across. They're not actively looking for chances to "be evil". But it is possible in a morally ambiguous situation that an evil character might show their colours and come into conflict with the good characters... but then again it might not. How many people have played in old campaigns where the party takes some prisoners only to have the paladin conviniently decide to take a stroll while the questioning goes on?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

While I don't like evil PC since most players use that as an excuse to be idiots, if you want to play an evil PC and not be an idiot I can handle that. I don't expect the PC to be heroes all the time, I'm a fan of the classic Gygaxian neutral myself.

 

[Oofta]

Because they're your friends and your life depends on them? Evil != cartoon caricature.



Why would they not kill me? Because they are my friends and I help keep them alive. And maybe because those evil acts are still part of something "necessary" and serve to advance our common cause.

Warning - the following story has to do with real life events and someone I knew that was evil.


[SBLOCK]I have a story I wish were not true. In college I had a buddy. I'll call him "Bob".

Bob would get weird scratches on his face, odd bruises, that sort of thing. He always had some not-believable excuse or other. Bob also had very ... negative views towards women which leaked out on occasion (it was not something most people would have known).

Eventually I put two and two together. It took me longer than it should have to realize that he was probably attacking women because I couldn't believe it. I anonymously reported Bob to the cops and refused to associate with him, because he was an evil bastard.
[/SBLOCK]

Unless it were a life or death situation, there was no way I would have associated with the guy. I certainly did not consider him a friend.

I can't imagine a character that I play that is not also an evil SOB doing any different.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Why play an evil character in a non-evil party? Why would an evil character not cheat/kill/steal from the goody-two-shoe who deserves it?

If you commit evil acts, why would others in the party not stop you, have you arrested or kill you? If you never commit evil acts, why play an evil character?

Warning - the following story has to do with real life events and someone I knew that was evil.

Nice anecdote. How nice for you. What does that have to do with anything at all?

Oofta asks why an evil person wouldn't be killed by his friends. Hemlock answers the question and provides an example. Oofta immediately changes the subject to an instance where someone did something bad enough that he eventually reported it to the police.

Why did you even quote me in your reply if you were just going to ignore every single thing I wrote?

And BTW, did your evil acquaintance have any apparent problems with the fact that he wasn't cheating/killing/stealing from you? If not, you've answered your own question.

 

[Oofta]

Nice anecdote. How nice for you. What does that have to do with anything at all?

Oofta asks why an evil person wouldn't be killed by his friends. Hemlock answers the question and provides an example. Oofta immediately changes the subject to an instance where someone did something bad enough that he eventually reported it to the police.

Why did you even quote me in your reply if you were just going to ignore every single thing I wrote?

And BTW, did your evil acquaintance have any apparent problems with the fact that he wasn't cheating/killing/stealing from you? If not, you've answered your own question.

All I did was give an example of why I personally would not associate with someone that was evil.

If other players in your group that are all playing evil/neutral characters that have no issue associating with someone that is evil there is no problem.

The guy I knew in college was not a cackling evil madman, he never harmed me or anyone I personally knew. He was still evil and deserved to be in prison and I would not willingly associate with him.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You can create a personality for a PC or NPC and evaluate it as "probably evil" without making it a psychotically omnicidal evil cartoon caricature of a human being.

You could probably evaluate the same personality as 'not technically evil.' Or, as we put it in 4e: "On the advice of my attorney: 'unaligned.'"

You're into the grey areas with personalities like that, RL morality gets pretty grey, D&D didn't always handle that so well. High fantasy morality, has room for supernatural or absolute big-E ('Cartoon') evil. D&D hasn't always handled that well. Though I feel like 'Detect Evil' and 3e's 'team alignment' spells fit the supernatural-evil angle. Whether that should apply to any mortal is another question. D&D has generally allowed it to, I'm not sure that's always been a great idea.

(Though, really, Cartoon Evil is often anything but. Skeletor EEeevil? Not exactly, not working under the BS&P, he can't be - on screen, anyway.)

 

[Lanefan]

Which is why I let people vote, in secret if necessary. If even one person doesn't want an evil character I don't allow it.

Now there's the top of a slippery slope.

One person doesn't want evil. Another doesn't want Paladins. A third doesn't want non-Human player characters. A fourth doesn't want Clerics of any faith other than X.

Accede to all this and pretty soon you won't be left with much...and if you give in to the preferences of one then in all fairness you have to give in to the preferences of all the rest. And gawds help you if they flat-out conflict.

Up to a certain point I don't really care what people's alignments are. However, some world views are just not compatible with one another.

So - assuming you're not DMing kids - if the characters are gonna fight let 'em fight. Let 'em split apart if that's what it comes to, or sort it out in character. (then again, my default is that players have more than one character on the go; in the Gygax style)

A brief summary of how I do it:

Rule -1: tell the players what they're maybe in for - that it won't always be sweetness and light and flowers raining down on the heroes (though at times it might be, you never know), and that bad things and disappointments and deaths and level/wealth losses and suchlike are inevitably going to happen so deal with it - then move to rule 0

Rule 0: make it abundantly clear - beyond clear, even - that what happens in character stays in character. It's the characters arguing, not the players. Also make it abundantly clear that alignments are not straightjackets, nor are they black and white. Good, for example, does not necessarily kill evil on sight just because it is evil. Then move to rule 1.

Rule 1: while there's limits on what race and-or class you can play (they're not all supported, perhaps); for alignment, personality, characterization and in-game actions: just about anything goes.

The drop the puck. Most of the time what results is a game where some of the intrigue (and quite a bit of the drama!) comes from within the party...which is fine by me.

Lanefan