Gods and Demon Lords, how do you handle them?

[Psion]

It's a philosophical question: If a demon lord is CR77 and nobody is around to kill it, does it actually have a CR?

 

[The Serge]

The problem with super uber mega mighty CR 77 demon lords is that despite all the effort you make in designing them you're aren't actually going to use them much.

This is only a "problem" if one is limiting one's cosmology to just PCs or even most mortal NPCs. I'm not interested in whether or not it's going to be used so much as I'm interested in how it balances out within a cosmological framework. I'm not designing certain demon princes and Lords of the NIne for the sole purpose for PCs to fight any more than I'm designing gods for PCs to fight; I do so because I'm interested in scales of power across the cosmic spectrum.

It's a philosophical question: If a demon lord is CR77 and nobody is around to kill it, does it actually have a CR? The vast majority of PCs are under level 20, and making a bunch of super monsters outside that range is a waste of space.

There's someone to kill it. Greater gods. Powerful angelic creatures. Powerful devils. Rival demons. Powerful unique monsters. These creatures do not exist in a vacuum unless the designer allows them to. There are plenty reasons why such a creature can exist and how it maintains it level of power.

While some may wonder why create something if PCs can't fight it, I wonder why create things simply because you want PCs to fight it. I'm interested in a fully fleshed out cosmology that allows PCs to interact in a variety of ways. If PCs become powerful enough to draw the attention of a CR 50 creature and they piss it off, I don't want immediate and dull incineration. I want to roll initiative, I want to roll to hit, I want to roll the damage, and I want to show how the PCs lose or, if they're incredibly lucky, win. I want the flavor to match the mechanics.

 

[Aaron L]

The problem with super uber mega mighty CR 77 demon lords is that despite all the effort you make in designing them you're aren't actually going to use them much. It's a philosophical question: If a demon lord is CR77 and nobody is around to kill it, does it actually have a CR? The vast majority of PCs are under level 20, and making a bunch of super monsters outside that range is a waste of space.

In sourcebooks such as the BoVD or the new demon one, I prefer to have CRs that get up to the mid 20's at most.

Because nothing should be out of reach of the PCs, and open ended systems are bad?

I wouldnt stat out something until I had an I dea Id need it, but I have a good idea of the power level of something, even if it is going to be CR 70.


I like to keep a logical power progression. If a human can become 5th level from a measurable number of combats, then I have a good basis for how powerful a cosmic superbieng should be. And a veteran of many wars, while tough, isnt going to be up to the task of slaying Demogorgon. So, 20th level, or even 25th level, is a laughable rating for a demon lord. Especially when terrestrial dragons are that tough.


I just want things to be logical within the framewrok of the rules given.

 

[Bryan898]

I also take a free hand in altering monsters; the first monster the PCs fought was a unicorn (unicorns in my world aren't creatures of sweetness and light. They are murderous beasts that like to skewer animals and people with their horns and feast upon spoiled flesh... but they are protected by a powerful glamour that makes them seem beautiful and good so you have to make a will save to attack them).

That is so cool... consider that yoinked.

 

[The_Gneech]

I'm more of a "giant mystery" mindset myself; the divine (or infernal) is an ever-changing, self-contradictory thing that seems to make sense sometimes, and is just incomprehensible the next. The elves say Corellan created everything; the dwarves say Moradin did. Maybe they're both right! Maybe they're both wrong! Maybe Corellan and Moradin are one and the same; maybe they're both aspects of something larger; maybe they're false gods entirely. Nobody knows for sure. Even a 20th level cleric who chats with their god every day, can never be sure they know "the truth."

-The Gneech

 

[Evilhalfling]

I consider most to be nigh unkilable -
but the campaign worlds history includes a demonlords avatar waying waste to half a contient, and eventually being slain. The PCs are activily thwarting the appearnce of another Demon lords avatar. He is served by lvl 17 archvillians - so he is stronger than that.

The gods are very hands off, and may not actually have material forms. One PC went on a personal quest to meet the god of honor. After he was invoulentraily planeshifted to the Celestial Realm. He came back as a paladin, but we handed waved it away as he tried out a new pc for a few sessions instead. He never found the god, only angelic spokesmen.

Of course Now Im encouraging them to attack the prince of Evil Earth Elementals - on his home plane. He is the weakest of the Elemental princes having virtually no influence on the prime. It might solve some philisophical problems if they only fight an Avatar, they don't wish him ill in particular, but are trying to forge a ring of elemental command. As I write this Im reconsidering, perhaps they only need to steal a posession, and Flee from the EEEP
perhaps I will use a Elemental Monolith? or Elder? with a Paragon Template.

 

[Glyfair]

I'm really not trying to troll here, I'm actually quite interested in what CRs you put the deities and demon lords in your campaign, and how you deal with the god's not smashing the demon lords/ archdevils?

Right now I'm running Eberron and am using the paradigm where the Gods are actually unreachable. Demon lords are actually modified heavily when they are used to fit in the game.

In my homebrew, however, I have a different approach. The deities don't smash the demon lords for the same reason they don't smash the rapist running around the village; they are beneath their notice. They are too busy dealing with their portfolio and the manipulations of the evil gods to worry about some upstart demon lords. If their is some conflict they get their followers to deal with it, while they focus on their major concerns.

 

[Uder]

It changes from campaign to campaign, but with few exceptions thel gods in my game can't read minds, be in more than one place at a time (sans avatar, at least), see more than one place at a time, or directly kill a mortal without the permission of that mortal's god.

Demon lords/princes are the toughest, oldest or smartest of the demons. Some may have been around close to a millenium, others only decades. Demon lords tend to only rule for a few years at a time, followed by long periods of exile or reformation.

Devils? The archdevils aren't afraid of solars, but would probably lose one-on-one in a fair fight. Of course, there are no fair fights in hell...

 

[gizmo33]

Devils? The archdevils aren't afraid of solars, but would probably lose one-on-one in a fair fight. Of course, there are no fair fights in hell...

And much more so in the Abyss you would think, but I'm having a heck of a time arguing that in the other thread.

 

[CRGreathouse]

In my campaign, the weakest true god is Ebon. He is protected primarily by his status and alliances. He has about 23 Hit Dice, CR perhaps 27. Of course, Ebon is in an unusual position, with many strong allies of widely varying philosophies and alignments.

The weakest gods beyond this level are CR 40+. Lesser gods start at CR 50 or 60.

The archdevil that my party primarily dealt with (does that tell you anything about the campaign?) is listed as CR 32 in my writeup. Obviously his power derived mainly from his ability to lead his vast forces more than from his personal power per se.