Good Hope vs. Inspire Courage

[Shadeus]

Bone horn I know about and use -- but -- what is WORDS OF CREATION???

From the BoED. Basically you speak an angellic tongue that doubles the effects of bardic abilities at the expense of subdual damage. I think it's a one time thing when you use the ability (not every round its in use).

 

[The Souljourner]

Where is the bone horn rule from? Sounds pretty powerful for something you can get practically for free.

The bardic ability may only get to +2 at 8th, but you only get your first couple of 3rd level spells at 7th level. In my opinion, it's worth saving a known spell to trade for the bonuses to saves. There are *so* many good 3rd level spells for a bard, I just can't justify using up one of my 2 or 3 3rd level spell slots for a spell that is almost completely duplicated by a bardic music ability. Haste, displacement, glibness, slow, crushing dispair, dispel magic...

And that's not even taking into account the bardic music boosters, like words of creation or this natural horn thing. If you count those, the music is actually better (unless you really need the save bonuses).

-The Souljourner

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's from Song and Silence. The "broken" effect only comes when you mix 3.0 modifiers to stuff that dramatically changed in 3.5 with the 3.5 changes. In 3.5, I would treat it as either an extra +1 to hit and damage but no save bonus or give it a cap of increasing bonusses to +2/+2 (which it had in 3.0 since Inspire Courage didn't improve).

Where is the bone horn rule from? Sounds pretty powerful for something you can get practically for free.

 

[HighlandsBear]

You can buff your party ahead of time with good hope and then cast spells and sing something besides inspire courage (yes, it happens). I don't like to spend one of the bards precious few feats on lingering song - it changes so little. So it lets you cast a spell right after a song, you still can't prebuff and in most battles it won't matter at all. Just not worth it. Good hope is better than even the +3 version of inspire courage because of the save bonus although I'm not sure its worth its cost, but its still definitely cheaper than a feat. The best offense combo for yourself and the party is if you combine it with inspire greatness and haste before the battle. You can get spells that give morale bonuses, but you can't get hp's and competence bonuses from them. Of course, I was selfish and took heroism, and did inspire greatness alot anyways.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Finally - there's very, very few things which give a bonus to ability checks.

 

[two]

Finally - there's very, very few things which give a bonus to ability checks.

True -- they are also very rare, however (the ability check itself).

I don't honestly remember ever having made one in 2 years of gaming -- I might be forgetting something...but? Maybe not?

 

[James McMurray]

1d4 per minimum rank of the ability. So inspire courage is 3 ranks in perform, 3d4 subdual a round.

Yu only take the 34 when you start singing, not every round.

For those playing in FR, don't forget Harmony for an additional +1.

True -- they are also very rare, however (the ability check itself).

I don't honestly remember ever having made one in 2 years of gaming -- I might be forgetting something...but? Maybe not?

Ever rolled initiative? If so, you've made a dexerity check.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

That depends on the party; a party focussed in particular areas can make a lot of ability checks.

Turn Undead, Trip, Bull Rush, and Overrun are all ability checks. A party that makes extensive use of trips, overruns (not that they're useful since the 3.5 erratta nerfed them--I'd guess that about the only time it would be potentially useful would be to have a warhorse overrun your foe at so that you could attack a different foe behind him or if you have Cavalry Charger) and bull rushes might find that aspect of Good Hope to be quite helpful.

True -- they are also very rare, however (the ability check itself).

I don't honestly remember ever having made one in 2 years of gaming -- I might be forgetting something...but? Maybe not?

 

[The Souljourner]

[Using a natural horn is] from Song and Silence. The "broken" effect only comes when you mix 3.0 modifiers to stuff that dramatically changed in 3.5 with the 3.5 changes. In 3.5, I would treat it as either an extra +1 to hit and damage but no save bonus or give it a cap of increasing bonusses to +2/+2 (which it had in 3.0 since Inspire Courage didn't improve).

Oh, now I remember. Yeah, you totally can't use 3.0 rules like that with 3.5, even when they don't deal directly with a rule that has been changed.

-The Souljourner

 

[Saeviomagy]

True -- they are also very rare, however (the ability check itself).

I don't honestly remember ever having made one in 2 years of gaming -- I might be forgetting something...but? Maybe not?

Initiative, Trip checks, Bullrush checks, endurance checks, breath holding checks, "don't lose your mind while traversing outer planes using contact other plane" checks, door bashing checks, resisting intimidation checks.

I think that's it.