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Grappling Clarification Needed

Otterscrubber

First Post
Ok, so i have to admit that I am a little confused about grappling in general. In the PHB on page 137 it states there are Grab, Hold, Move-In adn Grappling stages.

Grab - must make a to hit, makes sense

Hold - Starts a grapple on a success and allows you to deal damage. But when does this happen, on your next attack? At the same time that you hit on a grab as part of the same attack? If it is on your next attack does that mean the target automatically shrugs you off if it goes before your next attack?

Move In - You move into the targets space? Does this automatically happen? When you make the grab or when you make a successfull hold? After? What if you are out of movement? Does that mean you can't make a grapple attack until you have some movement?

Grapple - You are now successfully grappling? Weren't you doing this already when you got your hold? When does this happen? Is this another grapple check to get to this stage?

Things don't get any clearer when you read the improved grapple feat in the Monster Manual. Perhaps I will save that for another thread once I get this one all cleared up :)
 

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hong

WotC's bitch
Anytime you get a melee attack, you can attempt to start a grapple.

1) Opponent gets an AoO. If AoO is successful, stop. Otherwise go to 2.

2) Make a touch attack. If you miss, stop. Otherwise go to 3.

3) Make an opposed grapple check. If your opponent beats you, stop. If you beat your opponent, you do unarmed damage, and go to 4.

4) If you do not have movement remaining, stop. If you have movement remaining, move into opponent's square, provoking AoOs as normal; go to 5.

5) You are now grappling, and thus 5a) you don't threaten any area, and 5b) you lose your Dex bonus to AC against those who aren't in the grapple with you.


Improved grab lets you start a grapple any time you hit in melee.

1) Make a melee attack. If you miss, stop. Otherwise you do the listed damage for your attack, and go to 2.

2) Make a grapple check. If your opponent beats you, stop. Otherwise go to 3.

3) If you have the constrict ability, you do constricting damage. Go to 4.

4) You pull your opponent into your square (this doesn't provoke AoOs on your opponent). Go to 5.

5) You are now grappling.
 
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dr_nukem

First Post
Not sure about that Hong...

Your opponent does not get 2 AoO when you initiate a grapple, they only get 1. Now, is that from the Unarmed attack or moving into their square, that's the question. Still, it's only 1 AoO...
 

0-hr

Starship Cartographer
Here's an old grappling write up I used to use, for what it's worth.
(edited for formatting)

Code:
[color=white]
------------------- C L O S E   C O M B A T ------------------- 

To begin grappling, you must grab the opponent, get a hold, and 
then move in:

1) Grab the Opponent: As a standard attack, try to get a hand on 
   the defender: an unarmed touch attack. This will often provoke 
   an attack of opportunity. If that AoO does damage, then the 
   grapple attempt fails right here. You can make a grab attempt  
   in place of each attack you normally get. 

2) Get a Hold: Roll an opposed grapple check (base attack bonus + 
   strength vs. base attack bonus plus either strength or dex).
   Small characters get –4, large get +4 and so on. If you lose, 
   then that is the end of the attempt. 

3) Close In: If you do get a hold, then you move into the space 
   with your opponent and are officially grappling with them. You 
   also get to inflict the damage from a single unarmed attack on 
   the opponent as you close in. This is usually d3+str subdual 
   damage.


Fighting in Close
---------------------------------------------------------------
Once you are grappled (or grappling), then

· You can only use unarmed attacks or light weapons
· You have no threatened area.
· You lose your Dex bonus to AC against people you are not grappling.
· You cannot leave the space.
· Two weapon fighting is not possible.
· You can take no actions other than to attack, prepare an item (or 
  spell component), or try a non-somatic spell or ability.
· Doing anything complicated while grappling requires a 
  Concentration(20+) check.

On subsequent actions (after the grab and close) you can make an 
opposed grapple check as a standard attack option. You can do this 
once for each unarmed attack that you would normally get (The FAQ 
says, for monsters, to use the BAB to find the number of grapple 
checks allowed, and don’t add attacks based on number of appendages). 
For each one that you win, you can do one of the following:

1) Do unarmed damage (plus constriction damage).
2) Pin your opponent for 1 round (they are effectively paralyzed, 
   but not helpless, until just before your grapple roll next round).
3) Break a pin that someone else has on a friend of yours in this 
   same grapple.

If you are pinning someone, you can only do unarmed attacks against 
them. Other people can use weapons, and also get a +4 to hit the 
victim. You cannot attack, or try to pin someone else while pinning 
someone.


Breaking Close Combat
---------------------------------------------------------------
To get out of close combat you have to try to break the grapple as 
standard attack action. Roll either an opposed grapple check, or an 
opposed Escape Artist vs. the opponent(s) grapple check. You have to 
roll better than ALL opponents to get out of the pile. 

If you succeed, then you can still move, or do a move equivalent if 
you have actions left. Technically, you are not prone when grappled 
and so you do not have to take the time to stand up before moving.


Attacks of Opportunity
---------------------------------------------------------------
The initial grab is an unarmed melee touch attack and so may well 
provoke an attack of opportunity from your opponent. If it does, and 
the attack of opportunity inflicts damage, then that ends the 
grapple attempt.

The “close in” move is basically a 5ft step and so rarely provokes 
attacks from nearby enemies. If you charge and grapple, or move and 
grapple, then you might provoke attacks of opportunity as normal 
(for crossing threatened areas). You have to be able to move far 
enough to enter the defender’s space in order to try a grapple. Note 
that the defender does NOT get an attack of opportunity because of 
this last five feet.

The unarmed damage for closing in occurs right before the move, and 
so before any attacks that the move may cause. It is rather odd that 
a 30ft move and grapple would be resolved as a 25ft move, a grab 
check, a grapple check, and then the last 5ft of movement; but that 
is the way it works.


Improved Grab
---------------------------------------------------------------
Certain monsters have this feat and it modifies the above rules as 
follows:

.  They can start a grapple as a free action after hitting (and doing 
   damage) with a normal melee attack.

.  These creatures do not provoke an attack of opportunity for the 
   initial grab, nor do they have to roll to hit for this grab. It 
   already hit with the melee attack.

 . After the grab, the creature can do one of two things: conduct 
   the grapple normally, or conduct a “improved hold”. Both options 
   require a standard grapple check, though the creature suffers a –20 
   penalty in the case of an improved hold (I say “improved” because 
   the PHB also uses the term “hold”.).

.  If the grapple is conducted normally, the creature does NOT 
   inflict more damage when it moves in, since it already inflicted 
   damage right before the free grab. But it does add “constrict” 
   damage at this time if applicable.

.  On subsequent actions, more grapple checks can be made (up to one 
   per attack, number of attacks based on BAB only). A success deals 
   damage equal to the initial melee attack, plus any constriction 
   damage that they creature may have. If the check fails, then the 
   victim is still grappled, but takes no damage. These future 
   grapple checks can result in special effects (like being swallowed) 
   regardless of whether it is a standard check or an improved hold 
   check.

An “improved” hold has the following characteristics:

1) Unless otherwise stated, this grab only works against opponents 
   smaller than the attacker.
2) It uses one appendage to maintain the hold.
3) The victim is drawn into the creature’s space, though no attacks 
   of opportunity arise from this.
4) The creature is not considered grappled itself: the creature does 
   not move into the victim’s space, does not lose Dex, and can still 
   conduct melee combat, and move, as normal.
5) Improved holds incur a –20 penalty on grapple checks.
6) Escaping from an improved hold is the same as escaping from a 
   normal grapple, though the holder is at –20 on the check.
[/color]
 
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0-hr

Starship Cartographer
One thign I'm curous about is attacking grapplers from "outside the grapple". I'm not sure if there is a chance to hit the wrong person (like with Bullrushers). Is there a clarification on this anywhere?
 

hong

WotC's bitch
dr_nukem said:
Not sure about that Hong...

Your opponent does not get 2 AoO when you initiate a grapple, they only get 1. Now, is that from the Unarmed attack or moving into their square, that's the question. Still, it's only 1 AoO...

"To maintain the grapple, you must move into the target's space. Moving, as normal, provokes AoOs from threatening enemies, but not from your target." [PHB p.137]

Tell me now what opponent -- intelligent or otherwise -- would refuse an AoO before the grapple starts, for the possibility of taking an AoO afterwards. Are you bored?
 

dr_nukem

First Post
Uh oh...open mouth, insert foot...

hong said:


"To maintain the grapple, you must move into the target's space. Moving, as normal, provokes AoOs from threatening enemies, but not from your target." [PHB p.137]

Tell me now what opponent -- intelligent or otherwise -- would refuse an AoO before the grapple starts, for the possibility of taking an AoO afterwards. Are you bored?

Key words: "threatening enemies, but not from your target"

:p
 

dr_nukem

First Post
Ki Ryn said:
One thign I'm curous about is attacking grapplers from "outside the grapple". I'm not sure if there is a chance to hit the wrong person (like with Bullrushers). Is there a clarification on this anywhere?

Nice write-up...

Defenders inside the grapple are denied their Dex bonus if attacked from outside the grapple.

Firing into melee has a -4 attack modifier.

Cover would provide an attack modifier for both melee and missle attacks (my opinion there).

Outside of that, there's nothing in the rules to the best of my knowledge...
 

hong

WotC's bitch
dr_nukem said:
Key words: "threatening enemies, but not from your target"

:p

I am so glad you're here to tell me things I just told you. If it wasn't for people like you, the packets in the Intarweb would get all soft and flabby for lack of exercise.

Do you actually have anything intelligent to contribute, or are you just being pedantic for its own saek?


Hong "bonus points for pointing out the spelling misteak" Ooi
 

jonrog1

First Post
All Nukem did was clarify the fact that the target doesn't get that second AoO, and I believe "open mouth insert foot" was in reference to his own misunderstanding of the posts. Why the devil does everybody go from zero to snarky in six seconds flat on these boards?

And Ki Ryn -- nice write up, and I believe that the rational behind there being no additional chance to hit combatants in a grapple is because in a Bull Rush, they're moving past you when you take your AoO.

Now if somebody could just come up with a definitive answer on the Trip rules ...
 
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