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Green Ronin not signing GSL (Forked Thread: Doing the GSL. Who?)

BryonD

Hero
I'd guess it'll have the complete opposite effect, actually.
That was my thought as well.

I'm certainly not claiming that everyone will fall under the generalization, but the professional companies (for example: GR) will have the most to lose and therefore the most reason to be cautious. Whereas the ego publishers (and I don't mean that as a negative) will just truck along without any reason to be concerned.

The exception is the guy who is convinced that HIS campaign setting is the one true campaign setting that will revolutionize fantasy gaming. And we all know a dozen of those. :) Those guys aren't going to get their baby within ten feet of the GSL.
 

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Lizard

Explorer
Shall we remember that, when the OGL came out, it was specifically claimed that a number of games all using the same (or similar) base mechanics would increase the familiarity of those mechanics, and thus make D&D more attractive? IOW, 3pp were encouraged to create new games off the same engine, because, within the rpg industry, all roads lead to D&D.


RC

Crimethink, citizen! Doubleplusungood!

That never happened. Ryan Dancey is an unperson. Do not read the OGL FAQ. The goodtruth is that the OGL was never intended to be used that way. It was for making adventures only. Anything else is thoughtcrime.
 


dmccoy1693

Adventurer
The irony is that, if I remember correctly, companies like Green Ronin are the reason why the GSL is so restrictive in the first place, since they created Mutants & Masterminds and True20 and similar to compete with D&D, not supplement it.

I fail to see how these compete. Mutants and Masterminds is about superheroes, something d20 modern was not optimized for. By making it a stand alone product, the system can be optimized.

True20 is a system for those that would otherwise leave d20 because of its inflexibility and complexity, but like the basic mechanics of the game. I fail to see how decaf coffee competes with regular coffee. If you like the taste of coffee but don't want the effects of caffene, you're either going to stop drinking coffee or drink decaf. True20 is competing more with Fudge and d6 and other rules-light/highly flexible systems.
 


Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
This "glut" canard will never die if people aren't willing to discuss specifics.

What I observed is that WotC left holes in the marketplace, and many 3PP, rather than exploit those holes, chose to make products that competed directly with WotC's products.

What holes? What timeframe are you talking about? I'd like to know what dates you're talking about and which D&D leader was in the market at that time (3e or 3.5).

Smart businesses look for opportunities and points of differentiation--they don't attack their competition's strengths (unless they're in a position to really win). When consumers already have good, solid choices in one product category, why pile on to that category when the need for a different type of product is unfulfilled?

I saw a market that included class/race splatbooks from Mongoose, from Green Ronin, from Fantasy Flight, and even Goodman Games, just to name the biggest few.

Are you suggesting that these guys aren't smart businessmen?

Would you say that they prospered under the strategy of offering additional choices, even on the same topics?

This is classic "grow the pie."

It's not as if players with dwarven fighters will limit themselves to just one splatbook. When you are invested in your character/game, you buy more of the stuff that appeals to you. You buy all the books on dwarves, fighters, feats, weapons and armor, etc.

When an unrestricted number of companies creates an unrestricted number of products in an unrestricted range of categories (especially categories in which WotC is strong), the inevitable result is a huge glut that sucks revenues out of the sales channels and creates a swath of destruction. Consumers and retailers are confused about which products to buy, so they dabble in a range and end up with a lot of stuff that doesn't sell. Huge amounts of revenue is tied up in dead product--revenue needed to order new product or simply pay the bills. Shops close (nearly half the core hobby shops in the US shut down over the past five years--admittedly, there are other causes, but the RPG glut was a very real contributor); those that stay open order less and less new product as they see old product stack up.

Hundreds? Really? You're really going to blame the glut on hundreds of publishers?

I can name you a dozen 3PP off the top of my head and cover the majority (90%? 95%?) of the entire d20 products ever offered. I'll concede that it was a glut, but it was generally speaking a high quality glut.

When I say high quality, I am actually not talking about the content. I am talking about the quality of presentation, the amount of money, marketing, and business acumen behind it, and most importantly, the ability to push it into distribution.

This is not a difficult exercise. Name the top 3PP you can think of off the top of your head, and you'll very quickly ID most of the d20 product that made up the glut.

AEG
Bastion Press
Fantasy Flight Games
Fiery Dragon
Goodman Games
Green Ronin
Mongoose
Mystic Eye
Necromancer
Paradigm
Sword & Sorcery Studios

When I generalize about the behavior of 3PPs, I am, of course, generalizing. Obviously there are exceptions; I'm not pointing any fingers at specific companies. Offender or innocent: you know who you are (and odds are it's reflected in your level of success).

I can't reconcile the text above with reality, because again, from where I am sitting, the companies most responsible for the glut remain the most successful today.

Unless what you meant was, "If you are successful today, it is because you were responsible for the glut and are flush with cash milked from the collapse of the retailers."

I assume that's not what you meant-- and yet, the top producers of d20 product are still around, and successful today.

Those guys that were driving the glut with stuff produced based on personal tastes instead of sound business decisions did a lot of harm. To the business-oriented 3PPs, to the retail environment, and consequently to WotC.

You really need to be willing to provide specifics.

Again: The vast majority of the d20 product that was in the distribution chain was put there by companies with the clout to get it there: The business-oriented 3PPs.

Make a list. Name names. It's ok-- I don't mind doing it, because the vast majority of this product was successful. There was a market for it.

Was the market as big as the retailers thought it would be? No.

There's your glut.

But the glut had nothing to do with the quality of the products or the types of product lines the publishers chose to focus on.

They just printed too much.

Supply exceeded demand. It really doesn't require any more analysis than that. It is not necessarily an indictment on the quality of the supply that there is no demand for it. Obviously there's less demand for crappy product. But it is also possible for there to be no demand for good product.

If you try to single out any particular publishers for being responsible for the glut, odds are very high that you're going to be pointing your finger at a successful publisher with good business sense who built a loyal following and has one or more successful brand lines.

I'll spot you Fast Forward Entertainment and any other defunct 3PPs you like. We'll take all that "crappy glut product" out of existence. Erase it from the history books.

You still won't make a dent in the amount of d20 product produced by the most successful publishers, all of whom are still around and healthy (whether or not they are still publishing for d20).

I suggest that you might have prolonged the lifetime of 3e publishing, delayed the collapse a bit, but saturation was inevitable.

Saturation in the RPG business is always inevitable. It's why we have 3rd and 4th and 5th editions.

Love it or hate it, one consequence of the GSL is that it'll keep a lot of those guys out of the market, making it a better business environment for the smaller number of publishers that do pursue the GSL.

You have it exactly backwards. The companies who are in the best position to offer quality product-- to use their business acumen to create high quality product and to grow it into successful brands-- are the ones least likely to accept a license that can cut the legs out from all their hard work.

The GSL is far more attractive to 3PPs who want to dabble-- get in, make some money, get out. They won't care one whit if they are building successful product lines and a sustainable publishing business on the back of a volatile, ephemeral, and one-sided license.
 

Fenes

First Post
It's not as if players with dwarven fighters will limit themselves to just one splatbook. When you are invested in your character/game, you buy more of the stuff that appeals to you. You buy all the books on dwarves, fighters, feats, weapons and armor, etc.

I bought just about every rogue and bard book I could get my hands on (and finally found the Prestige Class I was looking for for one character).

I also bought just about every "arabian/Desert/egyptian" setting book I could.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter

Folks,

We recognize that there's a great depth of feeling on these issues. I would like to remind everyone that, no matter how strongly you feel, we expect you to remain civil. You may be tempted to try cheap shots and rhetorical tricks against folks you feel are being willfully obtuse or obstinate. Please resist that temptation.

You all know the drill - Don't get personal. Don't suggest you know what's going on inside another person's head.
 

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
I bought just about every rogue and bard book I could get my hands on (and finally found the Prestige Class I was looking for for one character).

I also bought just about every "arabian/Desert/egyptian" setting book I could.

I know, man. I am convinced such behavior is typical.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
Crimethink, citizen! Doubleplusungood!

That never happened. Ryan Dancey is an unperson. Do not read the OGL FAQ. The goodtruth is that the OGL was never intended to be used that way. It was for making adventures only. Anything else is thoughtcrime.

Strenge days indeed, when we can agree so absolutely on something, eh? ;)
 

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