Green Ronin not signing GSL (Forked Thread: Doing the GSL. Who?)


log in or register to remove this ad

joela

First Post
owe

What is really amusing is that you seem to be implying that 3pps owe WoTC something giving them the opportunity to sign onto a restrictive license that could cause them to lose ultimate contro of their IP if WoTC decided to dramatically change or revoke the GSL.

I was thinking the same thing, too, wyrmshadows. That's like asking Microsoft to give all its proprietary material over to IBM and Apple because the latter two "helped" it develop DOS and the personal computer.
 

CharlesRyan

Adventurer
I've often seen people talk about how third party publishers failed to support WotC or D&D, something I think Charles Ryan first floated here on EN World back when he was still the D&D Brand Manager. [. . .] That was no more a "betrayal" than WotC designing a new edition of D&D. . .

To be clear, I never held that 3PP betrayed or failed to support WotC. (Nor did I ever feel that 3PP owed any loyalty to WotC or obligation to support WotC or D&D beyond the terms of the OGL and d20 STL.) What I observed is that WotC left holes in the marketplace, and many 3PP, rather than exploit those holes, chose to make products that competed directly with WotC's products.

That's not just bad in the OGL context--it's bad in any business context. Smart businesses look for opportunities and points of differentiation--they don't attack their competition's strengths (unless they're in a position to really win). When consumers already have good, solid choices in one product category, why pile on to that category when the need for a different type of product is unfulfilled?

Which brings me to why this is still relevant: Lots of people have observed that the GSL is designed to let WotC "regain" control of their brand and IP. That's nonsense--control of the D&D brand and IP has never been under threat. What WotC wants to do (in my no-longer-an-insider opinion) is put some controls on the market; in particular, to only open D&D compatibility to 3PPs who make products that complement (rather than compete with) WotC's products.

Is this because WotC fears the competition? No. The most successful OGL products of all time made only the tiniest blips on the WotC sales radar. If anything, a rising tide of quality D&D products drives consumer interest and floats all boats, including WotC's (which of course is part of why the OGL was created in the first place).

It's because WotC fears the glut. When an unrestricted number of companies creates an unrestricted number of products in an unrestricted range of categories (especially categories in which WotC is strong), the inevitable result is a huge glut that sucks revenues out of the sales channels and creates a swath of destruction. Consumers and retailers are confused about which products to buy, so they dabble in a range and end up with a lot of stuff that doesn't sell. Huge amounts of revenue is tied up in dead product--revenue needed to order new product or simply pay the bills. Shops close (nearly half the core hobby shops in the US shut down over the past five years--admittedly, there are other causes, but the RPG glut was a very real contributor); those that stay open order less and less new product as they see old product stack up.

So WotC changed the terms of 3PP compatibility with D&D, and made it more restrictive. Insofar as it controls the glut and keeps 3PP focused on products that players actually want and don't get (or don't get enough of) from WotC, more restrictive is good for the RPG business as a whole, it's good for WotC, and frankly it's good for the third-party publishers. And if it also means that a relatively small number of 3PP participate (currently 3 to 5, as opposed to hundreds under the OGL), so that the choices offered to consumers and retailers are relatively narrow but desirable, so much the better.

(Whether WotC did this well is not part of my argument; I leave that to a different discussion.)

(A side note: When I generalize about the behavior of 3PPs, I am, of course, generalizing. Obviously there are exceptions; I'm not pointing any fingers at specific companies. Offender or innocent: you know who you are (and odds are it's reflected in your level of success).)

(Hi, Nik!)
 

joela

First Post
presentation

BUT, the main issue here for me, is that since 3.5, Pramas' statements and posts have come off as very hostile towards WotC. His comments regarding 3.5 ruining things, his constant 4e pressure for the last couple years, he seems to me to be overly critical of WotC and "mad" at them in a way that colors everything his company announces for me.

You're argument is based on that?!? :eek: Note to Self: send Pramas a message to "bland up" his blog posts. Or more doublespeak. See WotC posts of pre-GSL release posts on ENworld forums for examples.

Or, better, hire a copywriter.
 

Erekose

Eternal Champion
. . . I think the problem comes down to the blame game. The restrictive GSL is due to WotC's perception that the OGL failed . ..

. . . It's because WotC fears the glut. When an unrestricted number of companies creates an unrestricted number of products in an unrestricted range of categories (especially categories in which WotC is strong), the inevitable result is a huge glut that sucks revenues out of the sales channels and creates a swath of destruction. Consumers and retailers are confused about which products to buy, so they dabble in a range and end up with a lot of stuff that doesn't sell. Huge amounts of revenue is tied up in dead product--revenue needed to order new product or simply pay the bills. Shops close (nearly half the core hobby shops in the US shut down over the past five years--admittedly, there are other causes, but the RPG glut was a very real contributor); those that stay open order less and less new product as they see old product stack up.

Charles may have answered my question already but did OGL fail?

My perception is that WotC made an awful lot of money out of 3.xE D&D and had 4E been released under OGL would have made an awful lot more.

In this context I can only assume that WotC assessed the risk of GSL (and subsequent revenue) compared to OGL (and subsequent revenue) and decided that GSL was the commercially attractive route to go down.

Sadly I guess commercial companies will always be driven by what's perceived to bring in the greatest return for investors . . .
 

vagabundo

Adventurer

Interesting stuff. Just a small note, I believe that most 3pp did not even see the holes, most were hobbiests with only the most basic of business sense and created stuff that interested them, not stuff that would fill holes. :D

Those that endured either had some sense of the market place or got lucky.
 

CharlesRyan

Adventurer
I believe that most 3pp did not even see the holes, most were hobbiests with only the most basic of business sense and created stuff that interested them, not stuff that would fill holes.

I agree. Those guys that were driving the glut with stuff produced based on personal tastes instead of sound business decisions did a lot of harm. To the business-oriented 3PPs, to the retail environment, and consequently to WotC.

Love it or hate it, one consequence of the GSL is that it'll keep a lot of those guys out of the market, making it a better business environment for the smaller number of publishers that do pursue the GSL.
 

lutecius

Explorer
What I observed is that WotC left holes in the marketplace, and many 3PP, rather than exploit those holes, chose to make products that competed directly with WotC's products.
Fewer publishers surely means less glut but I don't see what "exploiting the holes" has to do with it.
If anything, the tons of "fully compatible" material that became obsolete as soon as wotc published an "official" version caused a lot more glut. Also, If wotc wouldn't touch some niches, there had to be a reason. If a concept doesn't have a place in any of the monthly splatbooks, there is a good chance it won't sell as a 3rd party product either .

At least, the 3pp variants of existing products are supposed to be better than the standard set by wotc if they want to compete. So the publisher's credibility should matter even more to consumers and retailers.
 
Last edited:

vagabundo

Adventurer
I agree. Those guys that were driving the glut with stuff produced based on personal tastes instead of sound business decisions did a lot of harm. To the business-oriented 3PPs, to the retail environment, and consequently to WotC.

Love it or hate it, one consequence of the GSL is that it'll keep a lot of those guys out of the market, making it a better business environment for the smaller number of publishers that do pursue the GSL.

It is stuff to ponder. I was going to take the plunge, and with my brother (doing art), produce some PDFs. But I'm hesitant now. I'm wary of signing a contract saying I would have to pay legal fees. Maybe I'll setup a company, at least I'll have some protection if things go bad and I can fold the company...

We might do some free stuff, release it on EW and keep an eye on how the GSL shakes out over the next few months. I was waiting to see who would take the plunge.
 


Remove ads

Top