Green Ronin not signing GSL (Forked Thread: Doing the GSL. Who?)

[Vocenoctum]

You see them not going to bat for us, I see the opposite. The GSL is so restrictive, I don't blame them, and I am glad that they are looking after the things that are valuable to them (they are very valuable to me too).

I think the problem comes down to the blame game. The restrictive GSL is due to WotC's perception that the OGL failed. In their mind, the 3rd party failed the gentleman's agreement. The 3rd party didn't prop D&D up, the D20 license and OGL gave these companies a market. GR, Mongoose, Malhavok... none of these companies formed, made games, then dabbled in D20. They were d20 companies that branched out.

The reason that Green Ronin isn't antering the game is simple - WOTC and their GSL. It is simply unacceptable. They are probably feeling about the GSL the same way I feel about 4e - left behind by a system/contract that will not cater to them or be flexible to their wants/needs.

WOTC left them (and many of us) behind. Let us be clear - WOTC.

Razuur

To be clear, they don't consider it worth the effort to comply. There is no universally known "unacceptable". 3rd party folks find it horrendous in response to what came before, but before 3e there wasn't even this offer.

The amusing part is how many of these companies that find the GSL unacceptable wouldn't exist if not for the OGL.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

The amusing part is how many of these companies that find the GSL unacceptable wouldn't exist if not for the OGL.

What is really amusing is that you seem to be implying that 3pps owe WoTC something giving them the opportunity to sign onto a restrictive license that could cause them to lose ultimate contro of their IP if WoTC decided to dramatically change or revoke the GSL.

The OGL was conceived by Dancy as something that would expand the hobby and allow folks to create Open Content others could work with or improve upon thereby creating a self sustaining, ever improving, vibrant system. It is perpetual and irrevocable and that is the beauty of the OGL. We own it...how cool is that. We, any of us, can publish for a solid RPing game system. The OGL is what 3pps should be grateful for, and I woulod hazard to guess most are.

The GSL is not the same. WoTC controls it completely and any company signing onto it is subject to WoTC's whims. D&D 4e will never be "ours" the way 3.5e is. A lot of innovation comes out of good 3pp like Green Ronin, Paradigm Concepts, Paizo, Mongoose, etc. who created a multitude of settings and variant rules that definately added to the richness of the game for many players and DMs not enslaved to the idea the "if it isn't made by WoTC it must be superior" meme.

I'm guessing that 4e will never see a true blossoming of innovation and creativity from 3pps because only a fool would put the ultimate future of their IP in the hands of another company. Also, even those that would go the "copyright only" are risking potential lawsuits. Curiously enough, I think that if Kenzer is able to pull it off successfully there may be other who are willing to try it. I think going copyright might be one of the only ways 4e fans are going to get unique and interesting 3pp IPs.



Wyrmshadows

 

[drothgery]

I think you wildly overestimate the ability of GR to work anything out with Wizards. Wizards has not reason to work with such a tiny company.

Err... WotC (as opposed to all of Hasbro) is not all that big. They're considerably larger than anyone else making tabletop RPGs, but that's still not very big; if there are a hundred people working for WotC -- and that's counting people working on CCGs (and other non-tabletop RPG stuff) and HR and accounting and the like -- I'd be surprised. I mean, they have all of one person devote to Star Wars full-time. And the Star Wars RPG (in all of its various incarnations) is one of the biggest non-D&D RPGs out there.

A big company in the tabletop RPG business is one that has full-time employees other than its founders.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

To make it clear, copyright only really protects someone from having their work copied, word for word.

That is untrue, and dangerous advice.

 

[Fedifensor]

Actually, there is in the life of people a moment in time they will always remember (and yet some might forget it but they none the less will try to rememeber) and I think this is one of those. In the years to come people will say "What went wrong with WotC?". People will remember this as the moment they saw valuable people jumping off the ship yet continue to sail full speed ahead.

Or they might remember it as, "What happened to 3rd party publishers?"

WotC has a strong marketing arm, and a product that many gamers believe is an improvement from 3E (whether the new product qualifies as a new edition of D&D or a completely different game is a separate debate). The people who buy everything for the system they currently play (and don't buy other stuff) used to be shared between WotC and 3rd party publishers during 3E. Now, the 3rd party companies branching off to non-4E products either need to peel some of those gamers off from WotC, or they're going to lose those sales.

 

[Nikchick]

The 3rd party didn't prop D&D up, the D20 license and OGL gave these companies a market. GR, Mongoose, Malhavok... none of these companies formed, made games, then dabbled in D20. They were d20 companies that branched out.

[...]

The amusing part is how many of these companies that find the GSL unacceptable wouldn't exist if not for the OGL.

I know Pramas usually posts here as the voice of Green Ronin but I find myself with a few things to offer today, if just for a little clarification.

Green Ronin was formed in early 2000 and our first product Ork! the Roleplaying Game was released in June of that year. We shortly thereafter decided to dabble in this "d20 thing" by planning out a couple adventures, adventures that went on to become the Freeport Trilogy, but when we made that decision the OGL and the d20 STL were completely untested. Make no mistake, we certainly benefited from the license and will never deny the impact that d20 had on the direction of our company but I think it's quite overstating the case to claim that we "wouldn't exist if not for the OGL."

Green Ronin's founders had more than 35 years of combined experience in the game industry when we formed the company, experience not only in roleplaying games but also cards, miniatures, magazines, board games, and more. Due to the enthusiastically favorable response to our d20 dabbling, you could say we were "distracted" from some of our other possible projects for a while but we did continue to work on other things, even during the height of the demand for d20 material. The Spaceship Zero Roleplaying Game and Faery's Tale Deluxe, the Torches & Pitchforks card game and the Walk the Plank card game, map books like Dungeons of Doom and Cartographica, or our recent non-fiction hit Hobby Games: the 100 Best. We've always had our fingers in things other than d20 products.

I've often seen people talk about how third party publishers failed to support WotC or D&D, something I think Charles Ryan first floated here on EN World back when he was still the D&D Brand Manager. Green Ronin published almost 100 straight-up d20/D&D support products without counting support for d20 Modern or D20 Future. My feeling is that WotC's expectation that unrestricted numbers of third party support companies could continue to endlessly support straight-up D&D in the face of the product glut and unending direct competition was unrealistic. The market was demanding more and WotC themselves were not filling those holes; it's utterly predictable that companies would expand out to fill those niches and strive to create products to meet fan demand (as well as differentiate themselves from their competition). That was no more a "betrayal" than WotC designing a new edition of D&D... it's the natural course of business.

While we are mindful of the role the OGL played in the development of Green Ronin, I personally don't feel we "owe our success" to it. We helped manufacture support for WotC's business according to the plan they offered and by doing so we received exposure for our company; it was a mutually beneficial relationship. Our success, on the other hand, was not granted to us from on high by Wizards of the Coast or any other Powers That Be. We competed, we worked hard, we made mistakes on some things and chose wisely on others and earned our success through our efforts. In the far less mutually beneficial climate of 4th Edition and the GSL, I am confident that we will continue to produce excellent work and find an audience for it, starting with A Song of Ice and Fire Roleplaying and any number of things beyond.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Totally unsurprised.

When I first read enough details of the GSL to get the gist, I assumed someone had to be joking.

Then I realised, it's not even meant to be serious. No, it's not a joke per se (i.e., it is real, and legally [rather] binding), but the OGL was indeed warped into something utterly in opposition, in content and in spirit.

Its predecessor is still, and forever, freely and sanely accessible to all, however. Long live the OGL!

 

[Treebore]

That is untrue, and dangerous advice.

Let me guess, your going to bring up the Red Book and Seinfeld cases, aren't you?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Let me guess, your going to bring up the Red Book and Seinfeld cases, aren't you?

Nope, I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[Vocenoctum]

What is really amusing is that you seem to be implying that 3pps owe WoTC something giving them the opportunity to sign onto a restrictive license that could cause them to lose ultimate contro of their IP if WoTC decided to dramatically change or revoke the GSL.

Nyah, but they should also keep in mind that WotC didn't just wake up one day and decide to be bastards.

I think the GSL is easily handled through making an imprint/ divisional brand. The GSL applies to lines, and is easy to work around in that way. Sure you might not want to tie Freeport into it, but it doesn't mean there's not plenty of room for products and product lines.

The OGL was conceived by Dancy as something that would expand the hobby and allow folks to create Open Content others could work with or improve upon thereby creating a self sustaining, ever improving, vibrant system. It is perpetual and irrevocable and that is the beauty of the OGL. We own it...how cool is that. We, any of us, can publish for a solid RPing game system. The OGL is what 3pps should be grateful for, and I woulod hazard to guess most are.

Right, but, it was a failure. Very little built on other stuff, most of it was reinventing the wheel 10 times. Everyone had their own way of doing things. Add to that, they came up with OGL variations that drew people away from the core, rather than adding to it. WotC was foolish to believe 3rd parties would be happy just sticking to stuff that they didn't want.

The GSL is not the same. WoTC controls it completely and any company signing onto it is subject to WoTC's whims. D&D 4e will never be "ours" the way 3.5e is. A lot of innovation comes out of good 3pp like Green Ronin, Paradigm Concepts, Paizo, Mongoose, etc. who created a multitude of settings and variant rules that definately added to the richness of the game for many players and DMs not enslaved to the idea the "if it isn't made by WoTC it must be superior" meme.

While I agree that 15 different (random example) Ship Combat Systems provide variety and a wealth of options to choose from, I think in most respects it just meant people got tired of it long before finding the right system.

I'm guessing that 4e will never see a true blossoming of innovation and creativity from 3pps because only a fool would put the ultimate future of their IP in the hands of another company. Also, even those that would go the "copyright only" are risking potential lawsuits. Curiously enough, I think that if Kenzer is able to pull it off successfully there may be other who are willing to try it. I think going copyright might be one of the only ways 4e fans are going to get unique and interesting 3pp IPs.

While I can understand some folks finding the GSL too restrictive/ not worth the trouble, the "copyright" path just seems wrong to me. Folks can justify it as much as they want, blame the GSL & WotC, point out that it's perfectly legal, but it still feels wrong to me. That doesn't matter of course, since I'm not even buying extra WotC stuff, I'm not even really a potential customer for them. Just my opinion.