[GRIM TALES] GlassJaw's Grim Tales Variant Ruleset v1.2! (updated 9/29/05)

[genshou]

I noticed you don't have any of the variant ideas from the vp/wp and sneak attack thread in there. I'm not sure how common sneak attack damage is in Grim Tales (having little knowledge of the mechanics, to tell the truth), so I'm not sure if this is a potential problem or not.

I also see you avoided the effective Con damage for the purpose of determining max vp, whenever the character takes wound damage. I think that's for the best, even though the idea had some merit.

Everything looks great, though. I'd have absolutely no hesitation with the prospect of playing with these rules. I especially love the parry/dodge mechanic you've set up; it is very similar to what I've done in Pledge of Tyranny.

 

[GlassJaw]

Sorry, I've been on vacation for the past week.

I noticed you don't have any of the variant ideas from the vp/wp and sneak attack thread in there. I'm not sure how common sneak attack damage is in Grim Tales (having little knowledge of the mechanics, to tell the truth), so I'm not sure if this is a potential problem or not.

In GT, sneak attack is an advanced talent for the Smart Hero, which requires you to be at least 3rd level before you get any SA damage (there is also a prereq for it). Also, you cannot SA by flanking your opponent.

So right off the bat, SA is more rare in GT than standard D&D. SA is what I struggled with the most. I originally had a fairly complex system with regards to SA damage "spilling over" into WP damage. I knew it was cumbersome and Wulf merely confirmed my thoughts.

My goal for the system was to allow the lightly-armored, sneaky character who has SA damage to be able to deal a potentially lethal blow to anyone, regardless of level, if he gains surprise on his opponent. This might seem to make SA over-powered but this is the only time a character can use SA damage; they can't use it if they flank an opponent of merely catch an opponent flat-footed. It is truely a sneak attack.

Again, this is capture the feel of cutthroats skulking through dark alleys at night, catching their prey unawares. It was also done to place the emphasis on stealth and tactics and reduce the emphasis on armor since if you are wearing heavy armor, it is much more difficult to hide or sneak up on your opponent. While armor will help you if you are attacked, you'll be an easy target; it's a decision the players will have to make.

 

[genshou]

Sorry, I've been on vacation for the past week.

Understandable by all means–we all need a vacation once in a while. Some of us are too stubborn to take it, though

In GT, sneak attack is an advanced talent for the Smart Hero, which requires you to be at least 3rd level before you get any SA damage (there is also a prereq for it). Also, you cannot SA by flanking your opponent.

So right off the bat, SA is more rare in GT than standard D&D. SA is what I struggled with the most. I originally had a fairly complex system with regards to SA damage "spilling over" into WP damage. I knew it was cumbersome and Wulf merely confirmed my thoughts.

My goal for the system was to allow the lightly-armored, sneaky character who has SA damage to be able to deal a potentially lethal blow to anyone, regardless of level, if he gains surprise on his opponent. This might seem to make SA over-powered but this is the only time a character can use SA damage; they can't use it if they flank an opponent of merely catch an opponent flat-footed. It is truely a sneak attack.

Again, this is capture the feel of cutthroats skulking through dark alleys at night, catching their prey unawares. It was also done to place the emphasis on stealth and tactics and reduce the emphasis on armor since if you are wearing heavy armor, it is much more difficult to hide or sneak up on your opponent. While armor will help you if you are attacked, you'll be an easy target; it's a decision the players will have to make.

Well, there go all my concerns out the window then–hopefully, they won't land on that skulking cutthroat.

Well, GlassJaw, any chance of you starting up a game using these rules in Playing the Game?

 

[GlassJaw]

Well, GlassJaw, any chance of you starting up a game using these rules in Playing the Game?

Hmm, I hadn't really thought about that. I'm not a huge fan of PbP to begin with. I think it might be a little difficult with this system anyway - there is a lot more rolling to do overall. I definitely would like to do some playtesting of it though. Maybe I can dupe some people into trying it at a game day or something.

 

[Piratecat]

Yoink! I prefer VP/WP, so I'm glad you did this.

 

[GlassJaw]

Yoink! I prefer VP/WP, so I'm glad you did this.

A positive review from the man himself!

Obviously, the VP/WP system was my main motivation. As discussed by some of its proponents in this forum, the VP/WP system works well for a gritty/low-magic, yet action-packed game.

I like to think of it as a gradient Massive Damage Threshold. The results can be the same (any attack has a chance to drop you) but it's not really an all-or-nothing occurence as there are varying degrees of taking "massive damage". I also took this one step further and added the wound level penalties.

 

[genshou]

Hmm, I hadn't really thought about that. I'm not a huge fan of PbP to begin with. I think it might be a little difficult with this system anyway - there is a lot more rolling to do overall. I definitely would like to do some playtesting of it though. Maybe I can dupe some people into trying it at a game day or something.

I was mostly joking. I'm a fan of PbP, and I'd kind of have to be, since that's how my story hour is progressing until late October (then, it'll move to instant messaging with the player). Still, I don't even have time to participate in such a game, so if you'd actually started one as a result, I'd be feeling very guilty right now.

 

[ragboy]

So, did the Dodge/Parry rules come from Conan d20, or somewhere else? I didn't realize that these rules made Attack/Defense essentially contested rolls. I remember that Shadow Run had a similar system and it was (to me) a huge burden. Has anyone here play-tested these rules since they were posted (or if Conan uses the same system...)? Just want to know if it slows down gameplay at all.

I like WP/VP (having played Star Wars d20 since it came out). I like the idea of Dodge/Parry...just wondering if it gets confusing at the table.

Glass: I'm going to play around with these rules this weekend. I'll let you know what I find.

 

[GlassJaw]

So, did the Dodge/Parry rules come from Conan d20, or somewhere else? I didn't realize that these rules made Attack/Defense essentially contested rolls. I remember that Shadow Run had a similar system and it was (to me) a huge burden. Has anyone here play-tested these rules since they were posted (or if Conan uses the same system...)? Just want to know if it slows down gameplay at all.

I'm surprised no one's picked up on that yet...

No, that's not how the Dodge/Parry system works by default - just something I added. I've always wanted to completely remove armor class and try a fully opposed combat system. If it slows things down too much, it's easy enough to remove.

Bear in mind that my goal for these rules was to make combat cinematic and action-packed yet quick and brutal. I also wanted to stress tactics and stealth and reduce the need for armor and make actual, full-on combat something to avoid if possible. The WP damage in the surprise round (especially if you have sneak attack damage) is particularly brutal. It makes setting up ambushes and not getting ambushed crucial.

For these reasons, I don't think it would slow things down too much. If anything, I think it makes the players a bit more edgy (which is another reason why I want to try it). If they roll poorly on a defense roll and really need to avoid getting hit, do they start dipping into their AP's?

Also, there are a lot more things for the players to spend AP's on. Encourage them to do so and replenish them more frequently. And remember, most "normal" opponents won't have AP's. With this ruleset, the only time I would probably give an NPC villain AP's is if it was a mondo BBEG or a spellcaster but only for caster rolls.

Glass: I'm going to play around with these rules this weekend. I'll let you know what I find.

Nice! I'm very curious about the results.

Couple of other things: I didn't add in the finesse/armor piercing rules from Conan since I planned to keep the armor DR values similar to Star Wars. The DR in Conan get pretty high so there is more of a need for ways to bypass it or at leat reduce it. I'd have to playtest the rules a bit to see if it would be needed but all things being equal, I'd rather not add those rules.

 

[ragboy]

No, that's not how the Dodge/Parry system works by default - just something I added. I've always wanted to completely remove armor class and try a fully opposed combat system. If it slows things down too much, it's easy enough to remove.

Bear in mind that my goal for these rules was to make combat cinematic and action-packed yet quick and brutal. I also wanted to stress tactics and stealth and reduce the need for armor and make actual, full-on combat something to avoid if possible. The WP damage in the surprise round (especially if you have sneak attack damage) is particularly brutal. It makes setting up ambushes and not getting ambushed crucial.

Hmm. I ran through a couple of combats, and I'm not sure if I like the contested roll portion of the dodge/parry. In fact, I think I like it for parry, but not at all for dodge, and it kind of makes sense. A handful of feats based on parry rolls and counter attacks might make for even more interesting combat, and better justify the use of parry for the combatant. For some reason, I just don't like the 'crapshoot' aspect of a dodge contested roll (especially since its a character's only defense against ranged weapons).

I may use both when I run my next scenario to see how it plays with actual players.

Nice! I'm very curious about the results.

Couple of other things: I didn't add in the finesse/armor piercing rules from Conan since I planned to keep the armor DR values similar to Star Wars. The DR in Conan get pretty high so there is more of a need for ways to bypass it or at leat reduce it. I'd have to playtest the rules a bit to see if it would be needed but all things being equal, I'd rather not add those rules.

I don't know if I like the Armor DR rules. For some reason, Armor DR begs for a hit location system that makes combat resolution that much more difficult, slow and complicated. For instance, you're basically saying that a 17th century Musketeer in a cuirass has a full-body DR of X. Or that every shot that would affect wound points would go to his torso. You're kind of pointing out that to be realistic, armor should absorb damage, but then setting it up in an unrealistic implementation. Strangely, it didn't bother me much in Star Wars, so I don't have much of a defense for the opinion.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it.

VP/WP is cool, and I think the contested Parry defense has a lot of character development potential, and infuses combats with some more cinematic aspects. It certainly makes AC a more active stat, and almost forces the victim of the attack to describe how they are defending.

Good job overall. I know it's an undertaking (and takes some cajones) to offer up variants to rules that people already enjoy. Especially to this crowd.