Gunpowder, fantasy and you

[Hussar]

That's what you were taking from my and Pawsplay's posts? Really? Badwrongfun?

Umm, no. I was just saying that earlier fantasy tended to blur the lines between fantasy and SF far more than fantasy does now. And, it shows in earlier D&D. Mystara is chockablock with anachronisms. The 1e DMG had Boot Hill conversions.

I'm not saying that sticking to pure fantasy is bad at all.

But I am saying that D&D has a pretty long tradition of genre-bending. Heck, all the Far-Realms stuff that you see in D&D lately is a direct descendent of Lovecraft which is about as far from "pure fantasy" as you can get. You certainly don't have to use it, and that's perfectly fine.

I was simply responding to Marcq's assertion that genre bending in D&D was limited to a lone voice (Gary Gygax's) interpretation of fantasy.

 

[Aus_Snow]

That's what you were taking from my and Pawsplay's posts? Really? Badwrongfun?

Actually, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that. Not indirectly referring to you either. Didn't mean to come across that way.

But I am saying that D&D has a pretty long tradition of genre-bending. Heck, all the Far-Realms stuff that you see in D&D lately is a direct descendent of Lovecraft which is about as far from "pure fantasy" as you can get. You certainly don't have to use it, and that's perfectly fine.

Heh. And just to show how very arbitrary this kind of thing tends to be (for many people, myself included) - I have absolutely no problem with Cthulhu-esque stuff in my D&D. Well, there's gonna be some anyway, using corebooks and stuff. But even more? Hell yeah!


So anyway, definitely nothing personal there. I'm simply one of those (however many) with an aversion to tech beyond a certain level of progress (in my fantasy), including any kind of gun or similar device. It's probably as much an aesthetic preference, as anything "meaningful".

 

[Haltherrion]

Marcq - I think you're misunderstanding Pawsplay here. It's not that he's in any way saying that you're doing anything wrong in perfering not to blend genres. It's just that for a lot of older fantasy fans, the dividing line between fantasy and SF was nowhere near as sharply defined as it is now.

Fair enough and apologizes to pawsplay if I offended.

 

[Haltherrion]

In Tolkien, the fireworks dragon that zoomed down through the party sounded like a freight train.

Yes... a rather ill-chosen metaphor!

 

[Haltherrion]

I was simply responding to Marcq's assertion that genre bending in D&D was limited to a lone voice (Gary Gygax's) interpretation of fantasy.

Just because other's did it as well doesn't make it a good idea...

 

[Haltherrion]

The main problem I have with mixed-genre is not the genre mixing per-se but how it is handled as premise.

Premise to me requires setting the ground rules that the rest of the game/movie/book will follow.

This has two elements to it: consistency and the ground rules themselves. Too much of the "golden age of RPG" mixed genres that I recall violated consistency or did a poor job on the ground rules.

I'm tooling along for twenty sessions in my high fantasy setting and the ref asks me to explore a "strange dungeon in the Barrier Mountains"? Ok off I go. Wait? It's aliens and robots. Ugh. Consistency violation.

Or someone wants to mix fantasy and modern technology, say Aragorn meets Rommel? (Come to think of it, I think we did that in high school once around 32 years ago). But the German weapons are basically renamed fantasy equivalents (an 88 is the same as a ballistae? ugh). Or put in science fiction equivalents, my handy vibro-blade and blaster rifle do the same thing as his long sword and bow? Ugh.

It's hard to do right and most of what I recall of mixed genre stuff in the gaming world was sloppy.

It can be done. Pirates of Carribean works for me: the pirates and cursed gold premise is established in the early scenes, as is the nature of the undead. Works fine, engaging story. No complaints. But if my 9th level warrior has spents years in a high fantasy world only to open a vault door and find an old spaceship or such, I'm much more inclined to thing, "I guess the referee has run out of ideas" than "oh, wow, cool!"

But now that I say that, I recall doing just that as a ref back in high school as well. Wouldn't call it a very good game or wise thing to do though...

 

[Wolf1066]

I note with interest the oft-repeated "There is no gunpowder in Tolkien" saw in this thread - and yet they had fireworks. Actual physical fireworks, not just spells that gave the impression of them.

And if they don't rely on "gunpowder" as such, then what they do use is near enough to it as makes no odds. Crackers? Squibs? Rockets?

Admittedly, they were created by a wizard, but it still means pyrotechnic technology existed in the LOTR universe.

 

[Haltherrion]

I note with interest the oft-repeated "There is no gunpowder in Tolkien" saw in this thread - and yet they had fireworks. Actual physical fireworks, not just spells that gave the impression of them.

And if they don't rely on "gunpowder" as such, then what they do use is near enough to it as makes no odds. Crackers? Squibs? Rockets?

Admittedly, they were created by a wizard, but it still means pyrotechnic technology existed in the LOTR universe.

And as some else mentioned, he described the sound of them as a "freight train". I can forgive him a few lapses given the work as a whole and the role it played in the genre. As to whether firecrackers really require gunpowder, I'd say he left that vague enough it isn't required. I'd point more to the bomb Saruman used to breach Helm's Deep if I were going down this road...

 

[Wolf1066]

And as some else mentioned, he described the sound of them as a "freight train". I can forgive him a few lapses given the work as a whole and the role it played in the genre. As to whether firecrackers really require gunpowder, I'd saw he left that vague enough it isn't required. I'd point more to the bomb Saruman used to breach Helm's Deep if I were going down this road...

Well, there's another damned good reason to discount the "There is no gunpowder in Tolkien" argument. Thanks for that, I'd forgotten the breaching charge.

Whether or not it's gunpowder as we know it or some other chemical concoction is really immaterial; it was some form of ignitable pyroptechnic - little ones are crackers, big ones blow holes in walls. Small rockets are fireworks, big ones are weapons capable of getting over a castle wall or up to the top of a high tower - or at least scaring the bejayzus out of thick-headed orcs.

One has to wonder why Gandalf didn't break out the supply of rockets etc to at least sow confusion amongst the enemy troops.

 

[Haltherrion]

One has to wonder why Gandalf didn't break out the supply of rockets etc to at least sow confusion amongst the enemy troops.

That's exactly the reason I don't have such technology items in my settings. It opens up a whole chain of reasonable questions that end up changing the setting more than I care to. If you have rockets, you use them, even if it is just to spook the enemy. If you can build a musket you can see the logical progression to building an anti-personal cannon. From there it isn't much to build an anti-fortification cannon at which point fortifications must change (or be useless). Does it take a year? No, it seems to take centuries but it happened on earth.

How do I prevent such technology? I think if it is possible it will sooner or later be discovered and exploited although it could take thousands of years to do so (as it did on earth). So, it isn't possible in my worlds. Why not? I don't know.

Whatever physics allow magic, gods, souls, etc. doesn't allow much work out of steam expansion or chemical explosion. Change a few coeffecients and they don't go boom (or provide much power). Can you change such things without invalidating biology as we know it? I don't know. For my group, and my own purposes, if someone asks, it is sufficient to say it doesn't work. If their characters start experimenting with such things, they don't get the expansion they need for steam engines or useful explosions (never had anyone do that actually since I tell them 'meta' wise it doesn't work. Not like their characters in-game would have much reason to try it.)