GURPS vs. Harp

[Jürgen Hubert]

I've played GURPS quite a bit for numerous settings. Theres nothing it can do that d20 can't do.

What about PCs who are sapient pieces of software? Starships? Living Clouds?

All these are easily done with only the GURPS 4e Basic Set: Characters book. Which d20 books cover those?

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

GURPS Magic (at least the 3/e one) had lots of cool options I liked to use. It also had some alternative systems that can be good for some campaigns. I liked the Alchemy system.

It now has some new and nifty ways of using the magic system. It is now easy to model the "spell slot" system of D&D, and it is also possible to learn whole schools of magic as skills, with the more advanced spells more difficult to cast.

In 3/e, at least, the "race" books gave different costs for advantages if they were part of your race package than what the cost would be if it were just a normal advantage. I found that problematic, so I ruled that if a racial advantage was basically the same as a normal advantage, it cost the normal cost.

That was nixed with 4e. Attribute and advantage costs are the same for all races. You only get a point break for ST and hit points if you are much larger than a human...

 

[Harmon]

GURPs like every system has holes (the shotgun vs chain mail example is just one), but compared to d20 its realistic in every respect.

We created a "Blunt Damage" house rule which worked really well.

One of the things I like about GURPs over d20 is that a 100 pt character can take down a 300 pt combat monster given the proper tools and such that are within the 100 pt characters grasp.

Example- 100 pt character with a .44 can kill the 300 pt character with one bullet depending on how well one rolls. No matter how well a 1st lvl character rolls he is not gonna take out a 8th lvl fighter (for example).

HARP is have no experience with- sorry.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I remember trying the GURPS combat system with a friend, duelling with some characters (one made by us, and one from the book).

Character A empties a shotgun in the chainmailed Character B (from the book) at close range. Result: character B is unhurt.

While I don't have the 3e books with me, this is a rather unlikely (though theorethically possible) result in GURPS 4e.

A shot from a pump shotgun does 1d+1 small piercing damage ("small piercing" means that all damage that passes through armor is reduced by half, to a minimum of 1 point). Since chain mail has a Damage Resistance of 4 (which is substracted from the damage), this means that there is at least a 50% chance that an individual pellet from a shot will do damage.

But because a single shot from a shotgun releases multiple pellets, it is treated as an autofire weapon, with a Rate of Fire of 9 and a Recoil modifier of 1. This means that the target suffers 1d+1 of small piercing damage for every point the attacker suceeds at his attack roll. Unless you hit just barely, chances are very good that you will at least injure your chainmail wearing target.

But you mentioned that you want to shoot the target from up close! At really close ranges (up to five yards for a pump shotgun), the individual pellets haven't seperated enough from each other to count as autofire - instead, they count as a single hit, doing 4d+4 small piercing damage! That means that the chainmail-wearing target suffers a minimum of 2 points of damage. The average is 7 points - a serious wound, though the chainmail does offer some protection...

 

[der_kluge]

It's perfectly feasible (from what little experience I have) in HARP to kill things much more powerful than you. The main determinant is the DB (defensive bonus) and OB (offensive bonus). So, if you've got an 8th level fighter sitting around in his undies, it's totally feasible that you could slaughter him fairly easily, since his DB will be so low.

The thing is, in HARP, the difference in your attack and their armor class (DB) determines how much damage you do. In fact, in the house rules I think I'll end up using, the amount of damage will be the difference/2.

The other scary thing in HARP is that hit points aren't exponential. Hit points are a skill, and even though you can continue to dump ranks into it every level, the return on investments becomes less and less. So, the difference between a 1st level fighter and a 5th level fighter might only be 1 really good attack, and that's it.

 

[feydras]

To beat the chainmail vs. shotgun arguement to death: D&D in this example would be more ridiculous. You could score a critical hit with a longbow at point blank range and still wouldn't kill or even drop a mid-level fighter. If you are using the rules for guns in the DMG hit points would make a shotgun blast irrelevant far faster in D&D than in GURPS. Also, how about the falling damage? If you're high enough level you can jump from the top of a building and brush yourself off at the bottom, and i'm not talking about a character with slowfall here.

Overall, it seems GURPS is far more realistic with damage than D&D. Which is good if that is what you are looking for (I am). As for realistic, has anyone tried out Riddle of Steel? Looks hardcore realistic, but with less flexibility for fantasy games.

Thanks for all the comments. I did check out the HARPlite and it looks interesting too.

- feydras

 

[Seeten]

As a long time rolemaster player, I can tell you that combat has a wealth of stun, bleed, and effects. This is not really very boring, as when stunned, you can still act, you just cant attack. At least, thats how it worked in RM. HARP may not be identical, but in RM, combat was very interactive even when stunned. Stun is not a death sentence, its a very common occurrence. In fact, sometimes you were safer stunned, because you spent most of your DB on parries, making you more safe even than usual.

Cannot attack or defend, that is dangerous. Not terribly exciting either.

In RM, when we wanted less dangerous times, we'd change the letter code of the critical to extra hits. A +10 hits, B +15 +20, +25, +30.

 

[TGryph]

Harp vs Gurps

Well I am currently GM'ing a HARP campaign on Saturday Nights and soon starting a Gurps Fantasy campain on the occasional Sunday. Here is my 2 cents...

Harp..

1) Feels like D&D done right. While it has levels and Professions, they are WAY loose definitions, almost guidelines, to character creation. Very customizible.

2) Has much math (albeit simple addition and subtraction). Kinda drags out combat a bit.

3) Need to reference charts for combat on every hit.

4) Requires a bit more bookeeping on the GM's part, what with stuns and bleeding and such.

5) Has a more High Fantasy. Cinematic feel (at least to me).

6) Has a GREAT experience system, a solid magic system, and Wonderful support.

70 Easy to convert the myriad of D20 products to use with the system

Gurps...

1) Is far more gritty and lethal. Combat probably not as frequent

2) Has great roleplaying potential in the Traits, Advantages, Quirks, etc.

3) Is very customizable..(Harp is too, but Gurps starts basic and you can add what you want, esp Combat options).

4) Can be quickly switched to other genres for a change.

5) Can be overwhelming, esp to D20 folks.

6) Is more expensive than Harp (MSRP $75 vs $20 for core rules)

7) Has a more Gritty, Low Fantasy Feel to it.

Hope this helps..either one is FAR superior to D20 IMHO

TGryph

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Gurps...

1) Is far more gritty and lethal. Combat probably not as frequent

It's not as lethal anymore in 4E. You don't have to roll versus death quite as often, and you might survive such a roll even if you fail the roll by one or two points. And in most circumstances, it is far more likely that a character will fall unconscious rather than die. Still, there is always the risk of death, which brings some tension to combats...

5) Can be overwhelming, esp to D20 folks.

GURPS Lite is your friend here. Complete rules in 32 pages. Sure, if you want to play a mage or a nonhuman you will have to use the Basic Set, but apart from that...

Hope this helps..either one is FAR superior to D20 IMHO

Depends on what you want. Sometimes it is nice to view the PCs progress rapidly from weak nobodies to demigods. Thanks to the CR system, it is also pretty easy to throw "appropriate" challenges together.

Each system has its place, and I like them both.

 

[feydras]

One of my favorite things about RPGs, whether they be CRPGs or tabletop is the character development. Both in terms of psychological and ability-wise. So I like the advancement of D&D in so far as you aquire new abilities and options (hit points far too quickly) fairly quickly.

The way GURPS is recommened to be run character advancement seems painfully slow compared to D&D. My thought was to start with a relatively low point buy, maybe 100 pts or lower, and then give out more XP than suggested to counter this. Any thoughts?

- feydras