[Hackmaster] To anyone who's ever been slightly interested in trying this game out...

[mach1.9pants]

The Hackmaster 'seconds countup' system is certainly one that works way better in play than it would seem from reading.

 

[KJSEvans]

Yeah, but it's still drawn out by having to roll for defense (rather than a fixed AC) and hit point inflation for everything.

Instead of having 30 hit point 1st level PCs and 20 hit point goblins, what was wrong with 10 and 6?

Personally I find the roll-for-defense combat mechanic way more interesting. In other games you can basically space out and barely pay attention when a monster is trying to surpass your AC - in HackMaster I roll and you roll. If I roll a 18 to hit and you beat it? Elation. If you roll a 4 to hit and I roll lower for defense? Surprise jubilee.

Besides, to me that reflects how combat might actually work. There's a give-and-take in fighting that just isn't visible in abstract RPG combat.

 

[lejanius]

Sure, but you're only rolling half-damage and still counting full DR on a pseudo-miss. The orcs with a medium shield and leather armor (net +8 to defense on a d20, 8DR) were shrugging off everything except the 1-in-8 exploding dice. I think our last combat went 400+ seconds of game time because the sole remaining orc and the cleric with the flail were whiffing/soaking 90% of the time, and when they did get hit it was for a point or two.

I'd have been happier with a straight-up bonus to the defense roll. Or at least doing halving the damage after the roll, so you at least had the normal chance of exploding damage.

Wow crazy! I've been playing HMB since before it came out officially, i have never seen a combat that long ever.

Think the longest we ever reached was about 130-145 range.

I can't imagine a 400 count combat! I kind of want to see one now.

 

[KJSEvans]

Oh, I get how they work. But counting towards defense and as DR seems a tad much; either make it harder to hit, or to do damage, not both. The deciding factor in our game (and granted, it was a one-shot) came down to whether or not you had a shield equipped.

I'm not sure I follow. If you are wielding a shield, it actually makes you easier to get hit -- your defensive roll has to beat your opponent's attack by 10-or-more; otherwise you take half damage (which typically is absorbed by the shield, but sometimes penetration can result in your shield getting shattered!)

There tend to be trade-offs in HackMaster. Wear heavy armor and it becomes much easier to get hit... but you take less damage due to the Damage Reduction.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I'm not sure I follow. If you are wielding a shield, it actually makes you easier to get hit -- your defensive roll has to beat your opponent's attack by 10-or-more; otherwise you take half damage (which typically is absorbed by the shield, but sometimes penetration can result in your shield getting shattered!)

"Hit" = "Hit for effect"; functionally, no difference between a failed attack and a successful attack that does no damage (which is what we were experiencing most of the time) except extra die rolls.

Like I said, I understand how it works. It's just that in my admittedly brief exposure to it, it didn't add anything worthwhile to the experience. I'll readily concede that had we been playing Advanced, or high level characters, etc., that it might have been different. I just don't know that it would have been different enough to make it worthwhile from a 'fun' standpoint.

I think rolling damage normally and then halving it would probably be a reasonable compromise, since it seems that the mechanics in HMB seem to expect that the exploding dice take care of wonky math.

 

[KJSEvans]

I'm wondering if you used penetration when you played. I've seen players with high enough strength obliterate those using shields, even on a 'miss.'

 

[Greylond]

Those who claim that Shields are too good, think about this. In history, up until gunpowder weapons became common the heavily armed, and armored fighter with a shield was The Master of Combat. Shields were used simply because they were super effective. IMO, any RPG that is meant to simulate combat with Sword and Shield really should take that into account...

 

[KJSEvans]

Those who claim that Shields are too good, think about this. In history, up until gunpowder weapons became common the heavily armed, and armored fighter with a shield was The Master of Combat. Shields were used simply because they were super effective. IMO, any RPG that is meant to simulate combat with Sword and Shield really should take that into account...

Not to mention HackMaster is a game where tactics play a huge part in every combat. Once you get to a higher level, where your opponents are more likely to destroy your shield with a solid hit (such as when you're facing a giant) you have to change your tactics and start fighting with a different combat style.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I was running the playtest game and the whole shield thing seemed overly fiddly for my tastes. Rolling to hit, rolling defense, finding the difference between the two, then seeing that you need to apply shield damage, remembering which half damage die gets used and rolling that vs the shield..... its a bit much for every attack.

I did like the mechanic of the count up system but I gotta ask: who came up with those weapon speeds?

13 seconds between staff attacks? Are they assuming everyone is partially paralyzed? 10 seconds between longsword swings from a strong fighter is extremely slow. A GURPS fighter would eat him alive!

There are games with abstract rounds in which attack rates are actually slower but not counting out every second it doesn't seem as slow.

Overall I like the feel but there is tweaking to be done before its ready for prime time light and fast campaign play.

 

[Agamon]

I did like the mechanic of the count up system but I gotta ask: who came up with those weapon speeds?

13 seconds between staff attacks? Are they assuming everyone is partially paralyzed? 10 seconds between longsword swings from a strong fighter is extremely slow. A GURPS fighter would eat him alive!

OMG, I was just reading KODT this morning, and the Hard Eight guys were talking about people complaining about weapon speeds. If I was drinking anything just now, it would have been coming out my nose.