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Half-dragon as a class

irdeggman

First Post
As a "class", it is too powerful. What I mean is that when compared to other base classes it is waay over the top.

No base class has d12 Hit die, 2 good saves, 6 sp per level (and 12 class skills, one of which is Knowledge (all)).

Is this supposed to be a casting or a combat oriented class?

As pointed out you can't be all paths at once.

Adjust to a single good save, 3 class skills (and 3 more based on type). Hit Die should be dropped to d10 (although a d8 is more likely for "balance").

Drop the multiply low light vision by 4 if already have it.

There is a reason that the template (and other ways of doing this) have a LA.

Need to list that type changes to "dragon", this is important due to how spells interact with "types"
 

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Shin Okada

Explorer
Technically, there already IS a half-dragon as a class, Dragon Disciple.

Then, you can take Dragon Breath feat in Races of Dragon to let the character use it's dragon breath every 1d4 rounds.

Then, maybe you can give some levels in Dragon Samurai class in Miniatures Handbook for increasing the damage of it's breath weapon.

some 5 class levels/Dragon Disciple 10/Dragon Samurai 5

Now this character has full stats boost, natural armor, natural weapons, immunities & wings of Half-Dragon. He has 20HD and BAB of somewhere around +15. He can use 11d8 breath weapon once per 1d4 rounds.

Do you really need more?
 

Shin Okada

Explorer
Also, there is a Variant rule column for using Savage Species-like progression which allows you to play a Half-Dragon from the 1st-level, in Races of Dragon P.70.
 

Empirate

First Post
As a "class", it is too powerful. What I mean is that when compared to other base classes it is waay over the top.

No base class has d12 Hit die, 2 good saves, 6 sp per level (and 12 class skills, one of which is Knowledge (all)).

Is this supposed to be a casting or a combat oriented class?

As pointed out you can't be all paths at once.

Adjust to a single good save, 3 class skills (and 3 more based on type). Hit Die should be dropped to d10 (although a d8 is more likely for "balance").

Drop the multiply low light vision by 4 if already have it.

There is a reason that the template (and other ways of doing this) have a LA.

Need to list that type changes to "dragon", this is important due to how spells interact with "types"

(disclaimer: I'm solely talking about class balance and optimization potential here)

I don't see the OP's attempt as too powerful. In fact, I believe it's a class with a decent chassis, but far too little focus where class abilities are concerned, rendering it less than good for any purpose you might have in mind. Most class abilities seem to just duplicate dime-a-dozen magic items (flight, energy resistance, natural armor, ability bonuses [and why do those start with int and cha, only giving you great str at the late levels?]). There's a serious lack of non-generic, versatility-enhancing class features.

The only thing pseudo-unique (not counting the many, many dragon-themed classes out there...) is the breath weapon. Which, as a low-to-mid-damage blast, won't do much, neither really complementing a different (non-blaster) character role, nor amounting to define the character's role on its own with the long recharge times. Still, it's a nice fallback, kinda like a Warlock's Eldritch Blast. Sure, you get no blast shapes or essences, but that's what metabreath feats are for.

The not-so-nice part of the chassis, the Medium BAB, works similarly as in the Monk class: it firmly establishes the style-over-substance problem the class already has, in that it takes away even its ability to melee with the warrior types. Lack of weapon and armor proficiency sharply exacerbate this problem.

What are you going to do with this guy in a combat situation? You're either going to use a breath weapon feat with your breath once, then be out of interesting options until it recharges. Or you're trying to rip it up with your natural weapons, but medium BAB and lack of a source of good damage of some sort hampers this approach quite a bit. Or you're going to put that Use Magic Device skill to use. But the latter could be done as well by an Expert of your level.


Way I see it, this can be a very nice dip class for the first and maybe the second level. Taking more is probably not worth it. Taking all 20 levels is atrocious from an optimization viewpoint.
That said, in an E6 (maybe even E8) game, the OP's class would fit nicely and would still be able to compete.
 


Rampant

First Post
So more unique abilities and reformat the skeleton to define its role better. Is that What I'm hearing?

What if I drop HD to d10, skills to 4 per level (is there any reason not to use odd numbers there?), and increase the bab?

Also what's E6 and E8?
 
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Empirate

First Post
E6/E8 is a game where no character (neither PC nor NPC) can go beyond 6th/8th level. Instead, whenever you would gain a level after 6th, you only gain a feat instead. This flattens the class power curve considerably, since many people consider level 6 (or level 8) to be the point where the game balance between casters and non-casters etc. is optimal: melee is still viable, skill monkeys have just managed to pull ahead of skill-less people quite a bit where skill use is concerned (AND skills are still valuable compared to magic), and spellcasters have a few toys to play around with but don't yet break the game.

It also has serious repercussions for what kind of magic and items are available AT ALL, which often leads to a more 'gritty' feel: death and ability drain are permanent, for example (no Raise Dead, no Restoration).
 

cjosephs1s

First Post
Basically I'm trying to create class that incorporates the essence and style of the half-dragon but expands it into a full 3.5 class that can cover a large number of character concepts.

Once again use the half dragon template and then pick the class you would like to play. You only give up 4 levels so you still get 80% of everything. This should cover any just about any character concept WotC has ever had in print. If that still isn't enough ask your DM for permission to use non WotC books for optional character concept/class ideas.


Some things I'd like to include:


some sort of optional magical abilities, maybe expand natural armament so that characters can choose their own balance of magical vs. physical half-dragon


special abilities for the natural weapons (things like elemental damage for the bite attack, reach for the tail), but I'm not sure how to implement them, should they be feats? built into the feature? or an improvement gained later?

Add a few levels of any of wide variety of caster classes to give him magical abilities. Add items that give can be used as spells. The half dragon template gives bite and claw attacks. If they wish to pursue these further they can take levels in Monk or Fighter and take feats to improve them. Also I'm sure there are feats in Savage Species, The Draconomicon, and Races of the Dragon that will boost dragon stuff. Then you can mix and match whatever you like however you want.

Also I'm a little unsure how this should interact with the dragon-blood subtype and the dragon type.

Yes the template changes the type to dragon permantly.

I think what myself and most other posters are trying to say is the half dragon template is what you are trying to do but WotC did it in 4 levels and you're taking 20 to do the same thing thus making it an unviable option for many players as they have no incentive to take this "progression" To be honest I'm not sure its even considered a class its more of a racial progression much like those in Savage species.

Classes do things; they have a concept in mind. They specialize in becoming better at something. Your "class" simply gives you the half dragon template plus one or two other goodies over 20 levels. There is no concept except its a half dragon template.

Your opening statement about wanting a character concept that revolves around being a half dragon is fine. Do that. Take the template and then pick a character concept and find a class to fit it. I'm sure between the 20+ classes and lord knows how many prestige classes you can find something that's going to fit what you want. What you have is a classic Occoms Razor problem. Your trying to complicate something that is very simple and already been solved for your by WotC and others in a very balanced way.
 

Starbuck_II

First Post
I think what myself and most other posters are trying to say is the half dragon template is what you are trying to do but WotC did it in 4 levels and you're taking 20 to do the same thing thus making it an unviable option for many players as they have no incentive to take this "progression" To be honest I'm not sure its even considered a class its more of a racial progression much like those in Savage species.

Classes do things; they have a concept in mind. They specialize in becoming better at something. Your "class" simply gives you the half dragon template plus one or two other goodies over 20 levels. There is no concept except its a half dragon template.

Your opening statement about wanting a character concept that revolves around being a half dragon is fine. Do that. Take the template and then pick a character concept and find a class to fit it. I'm sure between the 20+ classes and lord knows how many prestige classes you can find something that's going to fit what you want. What you have is a classic Occoms Razor problem. Your trying to complicate something that is very simple and already been solved for your by WotC and others in a very balanced way.

The precedent of Lich has two examples: Dry Lich Prc (no La as you take the Prc) or Dread Necromancer (Free Lich template no LA).

But Dread Necromancer is unique as it is done in Beguiler format (know all spells, cast spontanously, actual class features to emulate a Lich).

If he did something like Dragon Fire Adept but focused on a dragon exact abilities in a fun way I could see it, but issue is Dragons aren't the same.

He could make a Fire Dragon class, Ice Dragon class, etc, but otherwise it wouldn't work.
 


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