Handling defeated foes: dead or unconscious, and what to do about it?

[AbdulAlhazred]

For this latter bit one can actual make death of the team impact the controlling enchantment or the summoner too not as morale but something else perhaps.... where things unravel faster.

And will battles against the monster are actually you fighting the will which controls them.

Now, that's an interesting take on, at least 'lesser', undead. They're part of some 'controlling enchantment' thus always an extension of the will of someone else. This could also work for summons. It also fits in well with any "you can only control X number of summons/undead/constructs/whatever" sorts of rules, perhaps without the more cumbersome action sharing mechanics of 4e.

Though honestly the action sharing mechanics certainly work very solidly; they are just a bit rigid in terms of you pretty much can't relax them in a very meaningful way even if it would make sense (IE if you wanted someone to have 10 minions under their control. Sure you could slave them all to your actions, but that rapidly becomes quite inflexible, leaving little room for PCs with an 'entourage'). I get that the entourage WAS the problem, but it would be nice if there were more options than just axing the whole concept.

So, maybe the PC with 10 minions (or 10 skeleton minions, whatever) would have to A) exercise use of an action to maintain overall control, so there's still the action economy calculation to think of, and B) be subject to some sort of fairly unfavorable 'morale' concept, and/or possibly 'feedback damage' of some sort, at least in the case of things like undead. A druid might not be made quite so vulnerable when utilizing woodland animals for instance, but then again maybe the same thing applies... In the edge case it would devolve down to pretty much 4e's existing summons rules where you get (generally) one summons and it sucks up your action economy to 'run' it. I think maybe making the actual summoning into a ritual would HELP the situation with summons though. You'd have to anticipate a need, but that really isn't TOO hard. Instead of burning a precious Daily you pay an up-front cost (which might include a surge cost) and then basically you have an extra option to use your actions, moving/attacking/whatever with the summons. Existing 4e summons just really aren't much worth it given the need to sacrifice your daily slots on top of it being simply another action use option (plus a bit of blocking perhaps and maybe a useful instinctive action for some types). 4e summons are not terrible, but they don't tend to be top-notch options.

Anyway, just some random thoughts...

 

[Eltab]

IME, the battle disintegrates too fast (from Team Monster's view) to remember to use 'morale rules', but ...

IF (a) all the 'boss' or 'leader' type monsters are down, and (b) the total number of Team Monster members is less than half the original
THEN the survivors will run away or give up (as appropriate to the overall situation).
Those who run away will hide in a corner somewhere; they will not alert the rest of the base to the PCs' presence.

To avoid nasty entanglements and/or arguments, I tell my PCs 'you can tie these guys up in knots so well that they won't get out before you leave the area.' Once in a while I remember to describe "as you head back out of The Dungeon, you pass the field where you fought that orc squad. The bodies are still lying where they fell, and the surviving orcs you bound to the trees with ropes are still sitting there arguing over whose fault it is and squabbling about who they will blame."

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

IME, the battle disintegrates too fast (from Team Monster's view) to remember to use 'morale rules', but ...

IF (a) all the 'boss' or 'leader' type monsters are down, and (b) the total number of Team Monster members is less than half the original
THEN the survivors will run away or give up (as appropriate to the overall situation).
Those who run away will hide in a corner somewhere; they will not alert the rest of the base to the PCs' presence.

To avoid nasty entanglements and/or arguments, I tell my PCs 'you can tie these guys up in knots so well that they won't get out before you leave the area.' Once in a while I remember to describe "as you head back out of The Dungeon, you pass the field where you fought that orc squad. The bodies are still lying where they fell, and the surviving orcs you bound to the trees with ropes are still sitting there arguing over whose fault it is and squabbling about who they will blame."

What, the sturges and ochre jellies haven't shown up and claimed dead and helpless alike yet? lol.

 

[Garthanos]

Now, that's an interesting take on, at least 'lesser', undead. They're part of some 'controlling enchantment' thus always an extension of the will of someone else. This could also work for summons. It also fits in well with any "you can only control X number of summons/undead/constructs/whatever" sorts of rules, perhaps without the more cumbersome action sharing mechanics of 4e.

Though honestly the action sharing mechanics certainly work very solidly; they are just a bit rigid in terms of you pretty much can't relax them in a very meaningful way even if it would make sense (IE if you wanted someone to have 10 minions under their control. Sure you could slave them all to your actions, but that rapidly becomes quite inflexible, leaving little room for PCs with an 'entourage'). I get that the entourage WAS the problem, but it would be nice if there were more options than just axing the whole concept.

So, maybe the PC with 10 minions (or 10 skeleton minions, whatever) would have to A) exercise use of an action to maintain overall control, so there's still the action economy calculation to think of, and B) be subject to some sort of fairly unfavorable 'morale' concept, and/or possibly 'feedback damage' of some sort, at least in the case of things like undead. A druid might not be made quite so vulnerable when utilizing woodland animals for instance, but then again maybe the same thing applies... In the edge case it would devolve down to pretty much 4e's existing summons rules where you get (generally) one summons and it sucks up your action economy to 'run' it. I think maybe making the actual summoning into a ritual would HELP the situation with summons though. You'd have to anticipate a need, but that really isn't TOO hard. Instead of burning a precious Daily you pay an up-front cost (which might include a surge cost) and then basically you have an extra option to use your actions, moving/attacking/whatever with the summons. Existing 4e summons just really aren't much worth it given the need to sacrifice your daily slots on top of it being simply another action use option (plus a bit of blocking perhaps and maybe a useful instinctive action for some types). 4e summons are not terrible, but they don't tend to be top-notch options.

Anyway, just some random thoughts...

Coming up with a workable summoning system would also be a grand advancement for 4e.

Yes explicitly tying morale into hit points makes sense in the 4e paradigm.

As a Druid or Beast Master if you are killing my summoned animals I am bound to take emotional hits or
I literally couldn't have summoned or decently befriend them.


A sorceror might bind his own life force literally in that which he summons and be already weakened in a couple ways.

 

[thanson02]

How does your group handle defeated foes, especially humanoid or otherwise sentient ones? Do you default to framing all enemy defeat in combat as dead enemies? Do you give your PCs the option at every potentially lethal blow to make the decision: dead or unconscious? What about unconscious enemies? Do they remain unconscious until, essentially, the PCs are no longer within their sphere of influence (excepting important NPCs that may play a recurring role)? What about foes taken prisoner? Does keeping a captured but powerful defeated enemy sedate/docile become a challenge (possibly a skill challenge?) or otherwise a constant thorn in your PCs' side while they travel to turn the foe over to some greater authority?

Here are the relevent rules bits from the Compendium: "When an adventurer reduces a monster or a DM-controlled character to 0 hit points, he or she can choose to knock the creature unconscious rather than kill it. Until it regains hit points, the creature is unconscious but not dying. Any healing makes the creature conscious.

If the creature doesn't receive any healing, after a short rest it is restored to 1 hit point and becomes conscious....

Monsters and characters controlled by the Dungeon Master usually die when their hit points drop to 0, unless an adventurer chooses to knock them unconscious. Adventurers generally don't need to stalk the battlefield after a fight, making sure all their foes are dead."

Anyway, just curious how other groups handle such matters and if any interesting outcomes have resulted from defeated but living foes left behind or captured.

I made it clear from the beginning that they would receive XP from defeating the enemy and what method they use is completely up to them. I had to do some coaching on how that worked, but when they got it, they started coming up with creative ways to end fights. I think the most interesting way was the rouge climbed on top of the big baddy, blinded him, and then used negotiation actions we homebrewed to convince the enemy that it was in their best interest to stop fighting. It got really interesting.

 

[pemerton]

How does your group handle defeated foes, especially humanoid or otherwise sentient ones? Do you default to framing all enemy defeat in combat as dead enemies? Do you give your PCs the option at every potentially lethal blow to make the decision: dead or unconscious? What about unconscious enemies? Do they remain unconscious until, essentially, the PCs are no longer within their sphere of influence (excepting important NPCs that may play a recurring role)? What about foes taken prisoner? Does keeping a captured but powerful defeated enemy sedate/docile become a challenge (possibly a skill challenge?) or otherwise a constant thorn in your PCs' side while they travel to turn the foe over to some greater authority?

In our 4e games we just follow the rules - when the final blow is stuck, the striker can decide whether it is fatal or not.

The PCs in my game have often taken prisoners. How the prisoners respond is something to be determined from the context and details of the ingame situation. But my bottom line is that defeating an enemy has to count as a victory for the players, not a loss - so a defeated NPC/creature will generally stay defeated.

I can remember Heroic tier instances of taking hobgoblins and goblins prisoner, and extracting promises from them to renounce violence. We've always assumed that those promises are honoued.

Here is a report of a Paragon tier instance of an interrogation following a capture: it was resolved as a skill challenge, which - on this occasion - the players lost.

I have allowed Intimidation checks to do psychic damage (from memory, this was a feature of the resolution of the version of Heathen that I ran in my game). But I've also used skill challenges to resolve attempts to defeat enemies by suasion rather than force. This account of the PCs taming a bear provoked a surprising amount of controversy!

Interesting item pertinent to the discussion here: Gloves of the Bounty Hunter, "When your attack causes a target to be reduced to 0 hit points or below, and you choose to knock out rather than kill it, the target is restored to 1 hit point after an extended rest (normally this occurs after a short rest)."

My approach to this sort of item is not that it repesents or informs the rules, but rather that, at a table which applies the rules in a certain way, it might be useful.

I would put the Basket of Everlasting Provisions in the same category. Some tables just ignore rations, or run games where rations don't matter. If you're not at such a table, and yet you want rations to not be an issue, the Basket provides an ingame excuse for that.

My table has used the Basket of Everlasting Provisions, but probably wouldn't both with Gloves of the Bounty Hunter, as we just don't apply the game rules around unconsciousness with that degree of rigour.

I should add - this "looseness" of the 4e mechanics (that each table is free to take it's own approach to how various mechanical systems, and especially some of these more maginal ones, correlate to the ingame/fictional situation) is one of the things that seemed to infuriate detractors. There must be a truth about what happens when someone is reduced to zero hp, dammit!

 

[Garthanos]

I can remember Heroic tier instances of taking hobgoblins and goblins prisoner, and extracting promises from them to renounce violence. We've always assumed that those promises are honoued.

This heroic universe where oaths have power... people do not break oaths easily.

Heck those two might even count as fey by some standards which might double down on the potence of oaths (there is no required rite to make it so they are bound perhaps intrinsically).

 

[pemerton]

This heroic universe where oaths have power... people do not break oaths easily.

I also see it as a romantic/"fairy tale" spirit - treachery is not the default.

 

[Garthanos]

I also see it as a romantic/"fairy tale" spirit - treachery is not the default.

These world assumptions we are talking about here probably ought to affect the levels of practices and rituals ... The ritual Mark of Justice and the close related practice the Blood Oath/Demand practice and other Oath related ones AT minimum may become lower level, in these contexts.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I also see it as a romantic/"fairy tale" spirit - treachery is not the default.

I think you could still combine that with 'but the darkness calls them...' without violating the spirit of that genre. The heroes nobly give the bad guys another chance, KNOWING that they will probably fall prey to their evil natures again (like Gollum, though LoTR isn't exactly a romantic fairy tale). This seems quite in keeping with a certain sort of literature, perhaps epitomized by 'The Endless Story or The Worm Ouroboros' in which Lord Jus treats the goblins with the same honor as he would anyone else (though the goblins in that world aren't actually doomed to be 'evil' they do seem to have a rather different concept of honor).