Harassment in gaming

MechaPilot

Explorer
I would like to make a comment on the subject of art in gaming. One of the things that has always bothered me was the pin up art for female PCs. I have nothing against pin up art I always thought Vargas's pin ups were sexy. But there is a time and place for it.

The litmus test for me is this would you dress a male PC in this and would you put them in that pose? If the answer is no then don't do it for a female. I am no talking about fantasy art work in general just gaming there is room in art for sexy beefcake and cheesecake but unless the PC is a succubus/incubus or they ply their trade in seduction why are we dressing female PCs as some kind of sexual fantasy.

And yes I know some women like that and want their female PC to run around in a chainmail bikini and that is fine and they go on the internet and find plenty of artwork to represent their PC. I just think that it is a turn off for a lot of female players and does not belong in artwork in game books.


To address the depiction of women in gaming art, these are my feelings on the subject:

I think that the women in gaming art should be depicted with the same level of competency, badassery, and common-sense-dress as the males.

I like pinup art of both men and women, and I don't have an issue with a little bit of both being present. It's only in cases where there is only pinup art of one and not the other, or the pinup art is predominantly of one and not the other, where it starts to bother me.

Also, it's important to make the distinction between male pinup art and male wish-fulfillment art. The muscly loincloth-clad barbarian is not male pinup art. There are some women who enjoy that, but the majority of women show a preference for the swimmer's build over the bodybuilder's build. The bodybuilder look is male wish-fulfillment. And while that's not a bad thing at all (all escapist forms of entertainment should have some form of wish-fulfillment art for all genders), people shouldn't mistakenly count it as balancing female pin-up art.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
FWIW, my Mom prefers slightly chubby and fuzzy.

Which brings up another thing- most of the (human) male protagonists in fantasy art are not just bodybuilder types, but they're fairly hairless caucasians as well. Not too many Friar Tuck types in modern genre art...
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
FWIW, my Mom prefers slightly chubby and fuzzy.

Which brings up another thing- most of the (human) male protagonists in fantasy art are not just bodybuilder types, but they're fairly hairless caucasians as well. Not too many Friar Tuck types in modern genre art...

There are definitely a lot of varied preferences. For example, I heard something on the radio a month or so ago about the slightly overweight "dad body" being somewhat popular. And there's certainly regional influences as well. For example, I recall hearing that Japanese women found hairy men to be rather exotic and attractive.

However, it's generally been my experience that for me and most of the women I know, the preference is more toward the toned but not overly muscular build found in classical statuary such as Michelangelo's David.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
This one is not straightforward to judge.

Before I express my opinion on the thread - I want to be clear on my own position on what it raises first.

Firstly - I love women round the table. I actively encourage it. I normally GM and find as a man in this position that I enjoy the different dynamic of the female mind and the (for me as a male) less predictable ways a female player will have their character approach resolving problems or encounter. I also try make sure that players wanting to play people of the opposite sex are those capable of doing so without slipping into sexist cliché. I've seen that passively offend, and frankly it makes my left eye twitch to see it. I also recently withdrew as GM from a game at an RPG club due to sexual-stereotyping proxied through a female player's character which she was uncomfortable with. I told the organisers, and I apologised to the woman that it had happened 'on my watch' even though I couldn't really do anything about it when it happened.

Second - I have roleplayed since it was invented, and LARPed pretty much the same. I have encountered increasing numbers of women in both as the years have gone on, and this has generally made the hobby richer and more enjoyable.

I have witnessed only four other instances of sexism or sexually inappropriate behaviour in all that time, and two of the instances were dealt with appropriately. One was ignored in very much the same way as described the blogger, and in one the culprit was a woman. Twice these events involved police, who on both occasions acted quickly and appropriately.

I have been gaming for 37 years, I regularly do conventions and have LARPed for 20 years.

So I have to ask myself why I haven't seen much of this? I think the problem is 'selection bias' - and it is something everyone should try to take into account as they consider their own experiences. After all - the common thread of any experience you have is that YOU are the one there - and in 'RPG-land', you are commonly around your friends, and one doesn't make friends with people one doesn't like...

... so.

Let us assume for one moment that the blogger at the other end of the OPs link is a young, attractive woman - and thus will attract more unexpressed sexual attention than the average.

Let us also assume (as seems to be the case from the examples) that this most often occurs at open gaming days in shops and at conventions - and thus there is a larger gaming population to be found in immediate proximity.

Let us of course assume (because it is true) that the majority of gamers are male.

This makes it more likely that (a) there will be at least one maladjusted male in the vicinity, and (b) that the woman will attract their attention and perhaps a follow-up action like those described.

On a probability basis this all seems sound.

There is some 'sample bias' evident in the blog however. I would expect a mixture of 'don't know how to react' responses, 'he's my mate and I need to cover for him', and even reputational defence reactions from organisers now and again... but the complaints to police going undealt with, seemingly without exception?

That doesn't match my experiences - and my own 'sample bias' did not affect that one iota. I have to say that I also do not appreciate the male stereotyping the angry voice of the blogger descends into by implication - but I can understand it. We all go overboard to some degree when angry, so I'll leave that there.

But I do have to consider that as a white male, ex-military, confidently outspoken and the kind of person who will unhesitatingly speak out and act the MOMENT I see a hint of this sort of nauseating behaviour (my friends are similar, and the people around me generally know my opinions on this...) that I roleplay with people who agree with me on this, and elsewhere walk around in a bubble of 'don't try that near this guy'.

So applying logic to this analysis, the only reasonable course is to assume that I suffer from my own 'sample bias'.

I haven't really thought about this sort of thing from such a point of view before, and I suspect the vast majority of us haven't.

I think we should, and apart from making a firm commitment to stamp on this when we witness it, and to go out of our way to ensure it is dealt appropriately, we also need to go a step further.

At conventions, big meets, game shops and of course in our own games - include a reference or two (in anecdotal style at the very least) to what we think of such behaviour, how offensive it is and how utterly unacceptable we find it.

On the one hand this will send a clear message to those hearing it, that they have 'permission' to express the same if they witness something (putting this into the mix early means 'shock' inaction or excuse-making is far less likely). On the other hand, the gutter-minded types will know that they need to keep their pathetic urges or bigoted opinions firmly to themselves if they don't want to suffer the consequences...

We shouldn't give a rat's ass whether our fellow rpg'ers are male, female, black, white, liberal, conservative, atheist, agnostic, religious, straight, gay, undecided, trans-sexual or whatever, and you know why...?

... because we are about to step into a world where different races, religions, cultures, monsters, magic and other damn strange stuff interacts on a daily basis, usually staring in a pub, and ending in the kind of place you would never consider retiring to because of the violent crime rate being above the national average...

'Preventative maintenance' of a universally open and accepting environment in which we can all go to that world without dragging in real-world prejudice into it requires our active involvement even if we are passively paragons of virtue ourselves.
 
Last edited:

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
There are definitely a lot of varied preferences. For example, I heard something on the radio a month or so ago about the slightly overweight "dad body" being somewhat popular. And there's certainly regional influences as well. For example, I recall hearing that Japanese women found hairy men to be rather exotic and attractive.

However, it's generally been my experience that for me and most of the women I know, the preference is more toward the toned but not overly muscular build found in classical statuary such as Michelangelo's David.
And tastes change over time, and standards vary from culture to culture. See the term, "rubenesque".

Do you know who was third in the Mr. Universe competition of 1950? Sean Connery. Here's how he looked in 1965's Thunderball:

Sean+Connery+as+James+Bond+in+Thunderball.jpg

DAD BOND!
 
Last edited:

S'mon

Legend
It is with a heavy heart I post this link.

Is there any RPG board this has *not* been posted to? It even got posted on Dragonsfoot! Thankfully the mods there locked it.

I guess it is a good way to demonstrate board culture - a quick peek at the end of the thread here shows fairly temperate posts; theRPGsite has heavy condemnation of lying SJWs, and I shudder to think what's on RPGnet.

Overall though I think this counts as a troll post designed to provoke maximum reaction.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Is there any RPG board this has *not* been posted to? It even got posted on Dragonsfoot! Thankfully the mods there locked it.

I guess it is a good way to demonstrate board culture - a quick peek at the end of the thread here shows fairly temperate posts; theRPGsite has heavy condemnation of lying SJWs, and I shudder to think what's on RPGnet.

Overall though I think this counts as a troll post designed to provoke maximum reaction.

So... hmmm.

1: If it was posted on every board but here, I think that was a good reason for me to post it no? ;)

2: Why was it a good thing that Dragonsfoot locked it?

3: What was the troll post - hers, mine... or yours? ;)
 

nedjer

Adventurer
This is absurd. There's nothing wrong with masculine gaming content ("toys for boys"). No correlation has been shown between it and real life misogyny and harassment. This is like saying racism will begin to change for real when white people stop using sunscreen and listening to country music.

At what point did I say there was a correlation? As for crying absurd - you appear to have confused correlations with causation while offering up your straw person :)

You even go on to demonstrate this with your ludicrous false comparison. You didn't do any science did you; you much prefer he who shouts loudest - you are a child. ;)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You didn't do any science did you; you much prefer he who shouts loudest - you are a child. ;)


You are not going to post in this thread again. I hope that's clear - by stooping to this, you have removed yourself from the discussion.

For everyone else - name calling will not be tolerated. KEEP IT CIVIL.

Any questions? Take them to e-mail or PM.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I took one look at the heading with white terrorists in it and the tone of the first few paragraphs and clicked close. Had the hyperbole and attacks against all men not been in there, I would have read the whole thing. That sort of language drives away a lot of people who would otherwise be interested.

Yep. I already noted that the author's approach was flawed, back on the first page of the thread.

However, the author of the piece is likely not reading this, so critique of her style is, to be honest, not terribly constructive. And, as already noted, dismissing the piece for its tone is a logical fallacy. So, on both points we are better served by moving beyond that.

It's not wrong or even bad to be defensive when attacked. Her attack on "all men" warrants a defense of "not all men."

You are being asked to set aside for a moment whether it "warrants" defense - that's about *your* rights, *your* feelings, putting focus on *you* as a victim.

It doesn't make her wrong for speaking out, but any distraction caused by men being defensive can be traced back to her generalized attack.

And, her perceived need to use that generalized attack to get attention is traced to... something that could have been prevented, if we were as good as we like to think. If we applied pressure to our peers, if we actually helped deal with the situation, our own feelings would need less defending, as she'd not feel a need to write the piece! So, you have a choice - focus on her presentation, or the root cause of the problem.

We (men) took an entirely rhetorical slap, that many of us did not deserve, sure. Meanwhile, women are getting groped and routinely abused.

By all means, continue on about how wrong the rhetorical device was... if you think that's the real priority.
 

Remove ads

Top