Harry Potter?

[Yqatuba]

Would Dumbledore and Voldemort be epic level do you think?

 

[Alzrius]

Would Dumbledore and Voldemort be epic level do you think?

I posted this on another forum, but I'm of the opinion that Dumbledore would be about 6th level, and Voldemort 5th.

Yes, I know, Voldemort and co. can toss out a spell that deals instant death - but if you consider that avada kedavra is just a low-level spell that deals hit point damage (and most of the characters in the setting are 3rd-level, tops) then it makes more sense.

I mean, it's a big deal that Voldemort can fly without using a broom. Whoop-de-doo for using a 3rd-level spell.

 

[Yqatuba]

Well what about the demiplane Dumbledore created in Order of the Phoenix? Would think that woudl require a 9th level spell (genesis). Aslo the instant death spell is suppose to be not resistable (Harry is the only one who ever survived it) which sounds like power word kill to me

 

[Alzrius]

Well what about the demiplane Dumbledore created in Order of the Phoenix? Would think that woudl require a 9th level spell (genesis).

I'm not remembering his creating an entire demiplane. Where in the book was that?

Aslo the instant death spell is suppose to be not resistable (Harry is the only one who ever survived it) which sounds like power word kill to me

Or Voldemort's spell just inflicts enough hit point damage that even on a successful saving throw, people die (and he's raised the DC enough that that's rare anyway).

Harry basically had his mother inadvertantly perform an incantation that gave him a spell turning.

 

[Belzamus]

The problem is really the disparity in the magic systems. Think about what an epic, or even 17th level wizard is capable of (genesis, time stop, etherealness, clone, foresight, greater celerity, gate, shapechange, astral projection, greater teleport, greater scrying...)

I'm not terribly familiar with HP, beyond seeing a few of the movies and following a few vs. debates, but I've never seen anything terribly impressive by DnD standards. Killing someone instantly can be done with as low as a 4th level spell, and Alzrius' idea seems far more likely, in that... HP don't have all that much hp.

All in all, I just don't see how any wizard in HP could be even close to an epic-level DnD spellcaster. AK loses a lot of its mystique when you consider it's never been fired at a raging, epic-level barbarian.

 

[beej]

Hah, a HP discussion. Let me toss in my 2 copper pieces.

While neither Albus nor Voldemort seem to be epic level, I think 5th-6th is too low for them.

Disclaimer: I may get a bunch of levels requirements a little off the mark, since it's been awhile since I played 3.5

*Voldemort can use large amounts of Fiendfyre, which could be an equivalent of hellfire, and iirc, small explosions of which are level 4 spells.

*There have been claims of Voldemort's horcruxes being similar to a lich phylactery. It's not a perfect analog, but that puts him to at least 11th level.

*Dumbledore's trickier. Voldemort can't beat him in a frontal fight, but that's probably because of the Elder Wand (made by Death most likely implies artifact-level item). Even with the wand, though, Dumbledore can't seem to beat Voldemort. He does seem to outthink Voldemort, but then that's probably just because of a higher int score.

All in all, my guess is that Voldemort's at a higher level (more people killed=more xp? XD). Voldemort at level 13, and Dumbledore at level 9-11 would be my guesstimate.

 

[Belzamus]

I could live with those numbers.

Though, really, if you tried to pit a wizard from each setting against each other, they'd both be something of an out-of-context problem for each other.

 

[Alzrius]

Hah, a HP discussion. Let me toss in my 2 copper pieces.

While neither Albus nor Voldemort seem to be epic level, I think 5th-6th is too low for them.

Disclaimer: I may get a bunch of levels requirements a little off the mark, since it's been awhile since I played 3.5

The main problem with trying to convert anything to a given RPG system - or at least one that uses powers tied to level-based progression - is that if a given power appears analogous to power X in the RPG system you're using, and you can only use power X at level X, then that character must be at least level X, even if nothing else about them is characteristic of the powers and abilities of level X.

*Voldemort can use large amounts of Fiendfyre, which could be an equivalent of hellfire, and iirc, small explosions of which are level 4 spells.

Voldemort never used fiendfyre (at least, not in the books). The only person we see using it is Crabbe, Malfoy's toady...which is a case-in-point for the above problem. Since fiendfyre is basically hellfire, which is a 4th-level spell (Fiendish Codex II, p. 101), then is Crabbe at least 7th level?

I'd say certainly not, considering that he doesn't seem to have the requisite intelligence, or show any other particular aptitude regarding spellcasting.

*There have been claims of Voldemort's horcruxes being similar to a lich phylactery. It's not a perfect analog, but that puts him to at least 11th level.

Now this is a good argument for Voldemort being of a higher level. In practice, a horcrux does seem similar to a lich's phylactery - it's a magic item that restores the creator should he be killed. So then he must be at least 11th level, the minimum level necessary to make a phylactery (and be a lich, though he apparently made one without becoming undead)...or that's the idea, at least.

Personally, I think even this is open to a fairly wide possibility of interpretations. For example, it's easy to say "but wait, Voldemort had SIX horcruxes (seven, if you count Harry), so that's like having six phylacteries! And the only way for a lich to have multiple phylacteries is to cast aumvor's fragmented phylactery (Champions of Ruin, p. 37), which is an epic spell, so he MUST be an epic-level character!"

From there it's a short trip to saying that everyone else must have a comparable level to be able to stand up to epic-Voldemort at all.

*Dumbledore's trickier. Voldemort can't beat him in a frontal fight, but that's probably because of the Elder Wand (made by Death most likely implies artifact-level item). Even with the wand, though, Dumbledore can't seem to beat Voldemort. He does seem to outthink Voldemort, but then that's probably just because of a higher int score.

All in all, my guess is that Voldemort's at a higher level (more people killed=more xp? XD). Voldemort at level 13, and Dumbledore at level 9-11 would be my guesstimate.

I tend to assume that unless there are multiple instances of characters using a variety of high-powered effects/abilities, that they're of a fairly low level. How do we account for low-level characters using occasional high-level effects? I chalk it up to customized differences in things like feats, magic items, etc. and the occasional natural 20.

How was Crabbe able to use fiendfyre? Well, fiendfyre isn't really that high-level of a spell; it's a lower-level version of hellfire (hell-burning hands?) that, according to the book, got out of control when it set the surroundings on fire and spread, with the spreading fire retaining the hellfire's quality of not being counted as fire damage.

How was Voldemort able to have multiple phylacteries? Well, compare the effects of them to a lich's phylactery. They didn't restore Voldemort to his previous state, good as new, 1d10 days later...he was stuck as a creature that was, in his own words, less than a ghost. So then these weren't full-power phylacteries, and he wasn't at least 11th level.

The Elder Wand? It's powerful, but to the tune of maybe adding a +2 to spell DC's cast through it, or maybe treating spells cast through it as +1 or +2 caster level higher than normal.

It's things like that why I don't see any of the characters in the Potterverse having levels that are anywhere close to the double-digits, let alone epic.

 

[Mr.Satan]

Voldy-boy has demonstrated phylactery construction, flight, control over the weather, divination abilities related to his name, the ability to kill with but a word, the ability to curse others, the ability to speak with serpents, the ability to possess others (magic jar), teleport, etc.

Not to mention he's controlled a variety of other creatures that are actually rather deadly and powerful.

However, it's also noted that his current level of power isn't even his strongest. Harry was accidentally given a large portion of his power at birth. Which means he had to have been even more powerful once.

 

[Yqatuba]

I'm not remembering his creating an entire demiplane. Where in the book was that?

Wasn't the secret meeting place for the Order of the Phoenix like a demiplane of somesort?