Has anyone tried Grim-n-Gritty Hit Point and Combat Rules, Version 4.0

[mcbmagic]

Hi has anyone tried this "Grim-n-Gritty Hit Point and Combat Rules, Version 4.0 "? If so, what did they think?

 

[mythusmage]

First I heard of this. Where might it be found?

 

[DarrenGMiller]

I read them and when I used G&G I rejected them in favor of v. 3.6. 4.0 is almost a HP'less system. Not what I was looking for.

DM

 

[GlassJaw]

I've read a bunch of versions of the GnG rules and while there were definitely some cool tidbits in each one, there was always rather major about it I didn't like.

I much prefer [shameless self-promotion] my own Grim Tales variant ruleset (see sig) [/shameless self-promotion].

 

[KenHood]

I read them and when I used G&G I rejected them in favor of v. 3.6. 4.0 is almost a HP'less system. Not what I was looking for.

DM

[BEGIN SHAMELESS PLUG]

The version 4.0 system is not an HP'less system. That particular flavor was the "Revised and Simplified" ruleset.

Version 4.0 tweaks 3.6 based on player feedback and adds support for several other things, such as...

• 49 pages, 100% open game content
• Alternative rules for figuring hit points based on the size of a creature, making massive monsters truly terrifying.
• Injury penalties which hamper your character's performance as he suffers damage.
• Armor that reduces damage, rather than lowering the chance to be hit in combat.
• Opposed rolls for combat, using a Defense statistic.
• A "Relative Degree" mechanic that replaces critical hits and increases the damage you inflict based on the success of your combat roll, rewarding skill rather than weapon selection.
• Effect-based called shot rules.
• Some support for psionic, modern, and future characters.
• Epic-level rules.
• Guidelines for adjusting a creature's CR based on its size.
• A new action type and new defensive actions.
• New automatic fire, suppressing fire, and energy weapon rules.
• Over 50 new and revised feats for use with the system, including psionic, metapsionic, and metamagic feats.
• Martial arts feats for nerve strikes, breaking strikes, and grappling.
• Four new spells and three psionic powers.
• New and revised magical and psionic items.
• Suggestions for implementing the rules in a high-magic setting.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Hi has anyone tried this "Grim-n-Gritty Hit Point and Combat Rules, Version 4.0 "? If so, what did they think?

Our group was thinking of going to this version, but after much debate, we think it is just too nuts. I think we might take some of the optional rules for grappling, but that may be it. IMO, just play the first version and adjust the pounce to include a +2 damage per 1d6 and keep it a low magic game, that seems to be quite enjoyable.

[BEGIN SHAMELESS PLUG]

The version 4.0 system is not an HP'less system. That particular flavor was the "Revised and Simplified" ruleset.

Version 4.0 tweaks 3.6 based on player feedback and adds support for several other things, such as...

• 49 pages, 100% open game content
• Alternative rules for figuring hit points based on the size of a creature, making massive monsters truly terrifying.
• Injury penalties which hamper your character's performance as he suffers damage.
• Armor that reduces damage, rather than lowering the chance to be hit in combat.
• Opposed rolls for combat, using a Defense statistic.
• A "Relative Degree" mechanic that replaces critical hits and increases the damage you inflict based on the success of your combat roll, rewarding skill rather than weapon selection.
• Effect-based called shot rules.
• Some support for psionic, modern, and future characters.
• Epic-level rules.
• Guidelines for adjusting a creature's CR based on its size.
• A new action type and new defensive actions.
• New automatic fire, suppressing fire, and energy weapon rules.
• Over 50 new and revised feats for use with the system, including psionic, metapsionic, and metamagic feats.
• Martial arts feats for nerve strikes, breaking strikes, and grappling.
• Four new spells and three psionic powers.
• New and revised magical and psionic items.
• Suggestions for implementing the rules in a high-magic setting.

Grrrr...

First, I would like to say, I didn't like G&G, but after playing the first version, I do find it fun, make of that what you will.

Second, the first edition rules seem to work just fine. When you start getting into the difference between your defense roll and your opponents attack roll as damage, that is getting too nuts. G&G is about more realism and a greater chance of death, but Christ, what where you thinking, that was just nuts?

Your first edition rules were deadly enough, no need to go over the top. I haven't seen your 4.0 rules, I refuse to download them. From what I have seen in your description of the rule changes, they are simular to the rules in your free versions. I know that you feel slightly jipped by your other PDFs not getting any money for them, and you do deserve something for that, they are fun to play, but sorry, I won't pay you money for a harsher rules system.

Ah, maybe I might give in and buy them just because I have used your other PDFs, just letting out frustration there. However, since I have you on the line, what where you thinking by saything that you can grapple with any weapon? Please explain how you can grapple with a two-handed sword?

 

[DM-Rocco]

[BEGIN SHAMELESS PLUG]

• Epic-level rules.

Er, umm, forgot, yeah right, like anyone lives that long

 

[KenHood]

Second, the first edition rules seem to work just fine. When you start getting into the difference between your defense roll and your opponents attack roll as damage, that is getting too nuts. G&G is about more realism and a greater chance of death, but Christ, what where you thinking, that was just nuts?

I was thinking that it fits more in line with realistic combat.

A few years back, I started training in an actual combat martial art, rather than a sport martial art. Now, before I get flamed for this, here's how we define a combat martial art:

1. You are trained to defend yourself against a single attacker.
2. You are trained to protect another person against a single attacker.
3. You are trained to defend yourself against multiple attackers.
4. You are trained to protect another person against multiple attackers.

We train in armed and unarmed combat, grappling, nerve strikes, firearm handling, bone breaking, etc. We use a wide variety of weapons. We train unarmed against weapons (and vice versa).

I have the opportunity to routinely train with some rather terrifying gentlemen--the kind you read about in the books--those "little old men" who move very slowly and somehow manage to leave you screaming and bruised, though you're not quite sure when and how they did it, or even if they touched you.

My instructor's instructor once told me to go at him as fast and hard as I could. I chased him around a room no larger than twenty feet square--if that. And never laid a finger on him. He just moved out of the way like a ghost. Finally, he stunned me senseless without using his hands or feet.

I went after him with a sword. He beat me with his finger.

HIS FINGER.

After a few years of this, I realized that it's about skill, not necessarily the weapon. How you handle it does impact how much damage it inflicts. Even against a non-living target, like a tatemi mat, it takes decent skill to make a proper cut with a katana. Against living targets, we learn techniques to "slap" with the flat of the blade and "pat" your opponent like you're spreading butter. Makes a nasty scalloped cut. A skilled swordsman cuts out "V" shaped chunks of an opponent. While a skilled combatant knows how to use an opponent's armor to break his limbs when grappling or how to slide a dagger into the vitals with a searching, sliding sort of thrust. (We train against opponents in armor, both medievel and modern.)

Truly, I can wax poetic on this. It's near and dear to my heart. I FREAKING LOVE IT!

Uh...

Anyway.

So, yeah. It's freaking nuts, but it's the way I believe combat works. And I created a ruleset that I like to use in a game. If other folks want to spend $5.95 on it, all the more better, but it's really just for me.

I know that you feel slightly jipped by your other PDFs not getting any money for them...

Now, how could you know that?

I originally released the rules for free because I was publishing them for my own pleasure, and I wouldn't have to put up with someone telling me what I can and cannot do. It was a gas seeing all these folks using them--as well as getting all the hatemail, telling me that I could do what I was doing or shouldn't do what I was doing. Yada-yada. It's fun stirring folks up.

Then, this whole PDF market opened up. And in June, I realized, "Hey! I can probably make a few bucks off this."

(Yep. I felt like a dummy because I didn't think of this a couple of years back, but go figure.)

So, I added some content to the old rules, fixed some of the bugs in the 2001 system (based on feedback and use), and put in all the gun rules and extra stuff I played with, like the martial arts type feat. I also converted a lot of the standard rules, feats, and items to fit the GnG system, that way it's easier for folks to plug into the game.

...and you do deserve something for that, they are fun to play, but sorry, I won't pay you money for a harsher rules system.

I appreciate the compliment. However, I've got to say that you're missing out.

(Of course, I'm going to say that! I'm shilling my system. Heck, the brother wants money for his trip to Japan!)

Really, you should buy three or four copies. That would give you four times the stuff on which you might be missing out!

However, since I have you on the line, what where you thinking by saything that you can grapple with any weapon?

Because it's possible. I've done it. Heck, you can grapple with chairs or firearms. You can rip a guy open with a pistol's frame (particularly one modeled after a .45 Colt with a long beaver-tail), lock him up in a limb restraint, and shoot him in the belly. If you turn him properly, you won't even get that much goo on you.

I tell ya, a short-bladed knife or three-foot long wooden pole is a thing of beauty when you grapple. Especially the knife. People tend to stop fighting when they feel a blade against the skin. 'Course, there's always the fella who makes the "jerk back" reaction and ends up filleting his arm because you've placed the blade against his skin at a slight angle.

Please explain how you can grapple with a two-handed sword?

Showing is much easier than explaining, but I'll give it a try.

It depends on if you're using a double-edged or single-edged sword.

Single-edged is the easiest for grappling. Treat it like you would a stick. Close with your enemy, place the edge against him in some sort of painful, locking position, grab the dull end of the blade with one hand, and apply pressure. You can twist or scallop the blade, causing it to dig into the flesh and cut your opponent.

With double-edged, you won't be grabbing the blade. However, you can lock your opponent's body around the blade, kind of threading it through limbs. By applying pressure and using the blade as a lever, you can throw and lock your opponent. Or, you can be a total monster, and just stab it through the body at strategic points and still use it as a lever.

With single-edged blades, you can also "stab-and-grab": stab it through your opponent's body, grab the dull side of the blade on the other side (while still holding the handle with your other hand), and apply leverage.

If you switch the focus of your thinking from "I'm fighting with a sword" to "I'm fighting with a sword," it makes a certain degree of sense. You don't fight the weapon, you fight the man. The sword is just a tool or an extension of the body. You can grapple with your hands. Therefore, if the sword is an extension of you, you can grapple with the sword.

One thing I've noticed in many RPG's. The focus is on the equipment, not the person. (This is true in a d20 game where the combat capability of your character has an inherent GP value of magical equipment.) By adjusting your damage based on the relative degree of the attack roll v. defense roll, I've shifted the focus from equipment to the person.

At 5th level, you don't want to mess with that 20th level fighter in his pajamas. Even if you're carrying Charlie the intelligent vorpal sword with the purpose of killing fighters wearing pajamas, you're probably going to get your head handed to you.

And that means everything is right in the universe.

Or at least in the universe that I live in.

 

[solomoncane]

Get 'em, Ken -- I love GnG4.

As a student of RL martial systems, I agree that you are closing in on a realism not usually associated w/d20. This will throw a lot of folks.

I loved the implementation of the 3.? rules in Forbidden Kingdoms.

Will we see more firearms rules?

Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[Psionicist]

Whoa.

I still use the version from 2001 sometimes, I had no idea the system was updated. Thanks for the headsup! Interesting post about real world combat too Ken.