Has WotC hit its stride?

[Umbran]

Folks,

Some posters here seem to be getting kinda snippy and personal. I'm going to ask you all to please, treat each other with respect. It may sound radical, but we ask you to be kind to each other. And, of course, please don't turn this into an edition war or company-bashing fest of any kind.

Thanks, all.

 

[Windjammer]

Has 4E hit its stride?

Depends how you judge that. If you go by reviews which declare the latest product the Bestest Evar WotC Has Yet Released, you may want to re-think your standards, because you'll find people on Enworld and elsewhere who say that about whatever is currently the latest. I've long since learnt to exercise caution over those commotions, because they've become part of a social ritual that follows all the usual signs of hype cycles. It's like every new product has to go through this transition: inflated expectations, trough of disillusionment, and then, many months later, sober assessment around the mediocre (not good, not that bad either).

For instance, when Underdark came out, Ari Marmell rushed to tell us it was one of the finest D&D books ever ("any edition"), others rushed to his aid to tell us that it was the by far lowest on the Delve content. In actual fact, it had thrice as much Delve Content as some previous books, and the actual content in that book, beyond the opening 8 pages on Torog (which ARE great) it is completely and utterly pedestrian, lacking for instance cartography for all the locations, and copy-pasting some half inspired drivel from 3.5 supplements.

Similarly for Slaying Stones. Wide and Far you'll find people who said: bestest adventure ever for 4E. Then Zak Smith came along, and illustrated point for point how the hype doesn't live up to reality.

I could go on, picking product by product. Like, how MerricB called P2 the finest D&D adventure ever (again), or Neverwinter the best city supplement ever - which leave me scratching my head which products he's compared these to to arrive at that conclusion - or how a recent reviewer on Enworld failed to mention that 25% of items in Mordenkainen's are reprints, that some of the items in AV 2 have larger write-ups, and so on. It may be a fairly decent book, but it's not a radical departure, a "new style" or whatever else reviewers tried to sell it as at the time.

Which brings us to Gardmore Abbey. I have it, I like the deck of many things as a play aid, but it is, let me tell you, 100% pedestrian. It's a solid effort, it contains nice bits here and there, but it is not the revolution that some isolated reviewers try you to sell it as. It's not even the best mega-adventure for 4E WotC has released, not by a far shot.

So, no, WotC has not hit its stride, but maybe we should celebrate that they haven't put out another howler? Your call.

 

[Windjammer]

-double post-

 

[S'mon]

A bard could function in several ways without a songbow:

- Using a songblade instead of a songbow, avoiding ranged weapon powers
- Using only weapon powers, no implement powers
- Being a skald and taking the powers focused on melee basic attacks
- Collect both bows and wands

If you have a bard who wants to use both the ranged weapon bard powers as well as bard implement powers, they'll have to either give up any enhancement bonus for one or the other, or they'll have to collect both magical bows and magical implements (wands, most likely) and deal with switching between them.

So it's just about enhancement bonuses? And since I use DMG2 Inherent bonuses, this is not an issue IMCs?

 

[S'mon]

For instance, when Underdark came out, Ari Marmell rushed to tell us it was one of the finest D&D books ever ("any edition"), others rushed to his aid to tell us that it was the by far lowest on the Delve content. In actual fact, it had thrice as much Delve Content as some previous books, and the actual content in that book, beyond the opening 8 pages on Torog (which ARE great) it is completely and utterly pedestrian, lacking for instance cartography for all the locations, and copy-pasting some half inspired drivel from 3.5 supplements.

Funny - I absolutely *hated* the Torog stuff, and the Delve content is the thing that I primarily value in this, Open Grave, etc. The reek of Torog throughout the book pretty much ruined Underdark for me. The lack of Delves in Manual of the Planes was a huge disappointment.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Funny - I absolutely *hated* the Torog stuff, and the Delve content is the thing that I primarily value in this, Open Grave, etc. The reek of Torog throughout the book pretty much ruined Underdark for me. The lack of Delves in Manual of the Planes was a huge disappointment.

Which just goes to show that every new book that gets released by WotC is simultaneously the 'best book', 'worst book', and 'middle-of-the-road book' of all time for 4E.

So have WotC hit their stride? In my personal opinion, they've been striding along at a fair clip this entire time. It's just that sometimes I enjoy watching them run, and sometimes I don't. And that will continue for as long as the 4E race goes on.

 

[Klaus]

Similarly for Slaying Stones. Wide and Far you'll find people who said: bestest adventure ever for 4E. Then Zak Smith came along, and illustrated point for point how the hype doesn't live up to reality.

That post was wrong on so many levels, it's not even funny. The criticism to the cover alone proves that Zak doesn't really understand what he's taling about. How can he claim that Iron Defenders (a steampuk-ish creature straight out of Eberron) can somehow be equated with that horrible Zord-like picture?

The Slaying Stone *is* one of the best adventures made for 4e, right alongside Reavers of Harkenwold (and from what I hear, Madness at Gardmore Abeey... haven't read that one).

 

[D'karr]

That post was wrong on so many levels, it's not even funny. The criticism to the cover alone proves that Zak...

Yeah, most of the criticism in that blog post had me scratching my head. There are complaints about the cover art, and the "correct" art he points to is one of the crappiest I have ever seen, even in that time period which had a lot of crappy album cover art.

He criticizes boxed text, not because it sucks or does not help the DM, but simply for the fact that it IS boxed text...

It's a published module for use by new DMs, what would he recommend?

Some of his ideas are good, but a lot of the criticism seems like nitpicking.

 

[Nikosandros]

The Slaying Stone *is* one of the best adventures made for 4e, right alongside Reavers of Harkenwold (and from what I hear, Madness at Gardmore Abeey... haven't read that one).

I actually have some issues with the general plot of The Slaying Stone, but I totally agree about being more than perplexed about that review...

 

[S'mon]

I actually have some issues with the general plot of The Slaying Stone, but I totally agree about being more than perplexed about that review...

Whereas if you look at the comments to Zak's review, you'll see that I concurred on all points - I ran SS and found it in practice to be a terrible mess, with all the attention in the wrong places. The 2 pages that describe the town & have a little map are good, and (with the poster map) provided 90% of the value in the adventure.