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D&D 5E Have you experienced very high-level (18+) play in 5e? Tell me about it!

valarmorgulis

First Post
Are save or die effects really that un-fun? Maybe I'm just old-school, but I consider them to be part of the thrill.

Good point about how advantage brings that to 75%.
 

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psychophipps

Explorer
One thing that I have pondered to help reel stuff in, at least in term of large amounts of hit points, is the old D&D rule of hit dice only up to level 10 and then +1 (or CON modifier for my game) per level afterwards.

Thoughts?
 

Gadget

Adventurer
I'm curious: to those of you who say that spellcasting dominates at high levels, can you elaborate? I realize that this is no surprise in D&D, but I had hoped that the efforts to contain the LFQW in 5e would be more fruitful (Concentration, no auto-scaling, limited high level slots, etc.). Especially since, when I look at the spell list, there are many spells I see that immediately pop out as not being really all that much better than much lower level spells and not worthy of their level. Is it just the few, very effective spells applied efficiently in a combined arms manner?
 

Are save or die effects really that un-fun? Maybe I'm just old-school, but I consider them to be part of the thrill.
Yes, save-or-die effect are really that un-fun. There is little enjoyment to be had when everything is going smoothly, and then it all ends suddenly from a single die roll with no chance to prepare or respond. It really calls into question why you're even playing the game in the first place, if you can still lose without having made any mistakes at all. I believe Yoda had something to say on that matter.

It's also terribly unsatisfying from a dramatic perspective, for what it's worth.
 
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valarmorgulis

First Post
Wouldn't that be the same for something that can kill you in a round? Like getting hit by a giant? I definitely see where you're coming from, but I consider the threat of an instant death part of the appeal I guess. Also some spells and monsters seem to be so weakened without their save or die attacks. I'm glad there's still a few monsters who can kill instantaneously. But I approach D&D from more of a simulationist than a gamist perspective... it's one reason why I hated 4e.
 

Quartz

Hero
The thing is that at level dying and death are negatable. But to do that you need the body to be there. No body, no Resurrection, no Stabilisation, no Healing Kit, no nothing.
 

Wouldn't that be the same for something that can kill you in a round? Like getting hit by a giant?
At first level, when an orc can kill you with a single attack, it does feel very similar to being hit with a save-or-die at high levels. The main difference is, since you're level 1, you don't have weeks or months of history with your character. It's like some no-name red shirt dying in the first scene, rather than the actual main character that you care about.

At higher levels, when an enemy needs to hit you three or four times before you die - even if it's all in the same round - it's different. First, you get a lot of tension building with each hit, as the DM rolls the dice and you get to process each attack as a discrete event. Second, the outcome of a series of events approaches the average as you increase the number of events: if some orc crits you (or you fail a save), then that was one bad die roll and there was nothing you could have done about it; if a hydra bites you four-out-of-five times, then it's because your AC was low, as a direct result of your choices. Dying in one round against multiattack is both more dramatically satisfying and more "fair" than dying in one round to a save-or-die effect.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but I consider the threat of an instant death part of the appeal I guess. Also some spells and monsters seem to be so weakened without their save or die attacks.
A lot of monsters in 5E are underwhelming, and this is part of it. Another part of it is that none of them can inflict any damage whatsoever that can't be fixed with a nap. A death knight is literally incapable of cutting anyone unless it's a killing blow on someone who has already been worn down over the course of a long day. The healing rules in this game are shenanigans.

There are ways to make the monsters scarier without resorting to save-or-die, but there are also ways to implement save-or-die such that it's interesting and fun to play. The classic example is with the medusa, where you always have a choice of whether you want to look at it (and maybe die) or suffer the consequences (you're effectively blind for the round, but at least you're not dead). It's just when they take both approaches, to give you the choice and then also make it slow-acting petrification, where it really loses the danger.

I'm glad there's still a few monsters who can kill instantaneously. But I approach D&D from more of a simulationist than a gamist perspective... it's one reason why I hated 4e.
That argument doesn't really apply here. There is no real medusa that you're simulating, so it's not a better simulation for its gaze to petrify you instantly or over the course of a minute.

If you want to say that it's silly for a medusa's gaze to petrify you over the course of a minute, or for a banshee's howl to knock you unconscious without ever killing anyone, then that's more a matter of taste than anything else.
 

valarmorgulis

First Post
I was thinking more in terms of things like paralysis only lasting 1 round and so on. And yes, I am only speaking to my own personal tastes since there's no such thing as ghouls and such. But there is a simulationist perspective that effects should not simply be tailored for the combat round, hence a paralysis lasting for many minutes or even hours. Short rests is a perfect example.

Anyways, I should try to steer this back to the actual topic of the thread. Thanks for your input.
 


OB1

Jedi Master
A high-level character will have +6 proficiency, +5 stat, +3 weapon for a base of +14, so hitting AC 25 on 11+ or 50% of the time, so 75% with Advantage. Guidance etc will boost that considerably.

If you don't assume the +3 weapon (and you shouldn't) AC 25 means only a 35% chance to hit, a 58% chance with advantage and just a 12% chance with disadvantage. Given the number of hit points high level monsters have, this would be a rough fight, filled with lots of misses by the PCs.

As for Save-or-Die, if players make the choice to "dump" stats and to not (in games with feats) take resilient to shore up poor saving throws, I think its legitimate that they can get one shot by the right foe. As long as the DM has let the player know that such a threat exists, it's up to the PC to decide to take the risk in a fight or to find some other way to get past the encounter. A fighter should be scared of a demon offensive plane shifting them, and should take appropriate counter measures including the possibility of taking the dodge action to keep from getting grappled in the first place.
 

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