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Healing Potions seem odd

frankthedm

First Post
Except it absolutely does no such thing as you claim it does. It just eliminates the old contingencies. Want a contingency, want to plan ahead? Be sure you have extra healing surges available. Do not waste them all. If you're out, you're not "in a bad spot," you've already passed the bad spot and you ignored it until things got even worse.
Healing surges also are great ways to judge who is being a selfish bastard and who needs to be less kamikazi about getting into melee.

Everyone is supposed to be taking damage. If the wizard still has ALL his healing surges and the fighter and paladin are almost out, that is a sign the wizard has been avoiding enemy attention too well. Everyone is supposed to suffer some damage and some characters, like Infernal Warlocks, should take a masochistic approach about being hit. Also, some of the fault can lay with the DM. Allies only provide 2 points of cover for a reason, the foes should be trying to get at the back lines.
 

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The healing issue is just one of the limitations of the "per day" hardcap embedded in the 4E system. A party could also have wands or scrolls for offensive capability set aside for emergencies.

In 4E the PC are mighty heroes and the center of the universe. Why not just rest whenever you need to? As a PC, you are the central focus of the campaign and the world WILL wait for you to refresh. If the Big bad doesn't let the PC's rest before a major encounter then the DM must be doing something wrong.

That type of thinking is no more gamist than the rules that encourage it.
 

Regicide

Banned
Banned
Healing surges also are great ways to judge who is being a selfish bastard and who needs to be less kamikazi about getting into melee.

Everyone is supposed to be taking damage. If the wizard still has ALL his healing surges and the fighter and paladin are almost out, that is a sign the wizard has been avoiding enemy attention too well.

So wait, a paladin that prevents the wizard from getting hit ISN'T performing their role? You're going to have to add that to the PHB errata then...

Why not just rest whenever you need to?

If you can rest whenever you need to, then there is no point in characters having differing numbers of healing surges. Everyone should just get 8. The healing surge mechanic means that characters are usually NOT supposed to be able to rest whenever they need to.
 

If you can rest whenever you need to, then there is no point in characters having differing numbers of healing surges. Everyone should just get 8. The healing surge mechanic means that characters are usually NOT supposed to be able to rest whenever they need to.

If the rules won't permit the PC's to stock up on extra healing for an emergency ( for those "oh crap" situations) then its up to PC's to make sure those situations don't happen, thus the "pause" button for protagonist protection. Not allowing one or the other would be bad DMing and lead to many unfun TPK situations.
 

Except it absolutely does no such thing as you claim it does. It just eliminates the old contingencies. Want a contingency, want to plan ahead? Be sure you have extra healing surges available. Do not waste them all. If you're out, you're not "in a bad spot," you've already passed the bad spot and you ignored it until things got even worse.

The problem with this is that surges are a gamist construct that CHARACTERS shouldn't be planning around. The 4E rules might try and convince the player that thier character is unaware of these constructs yet they keep hitting the poor character in the head when making character based decisions. Bringing extra magical supplies is something that the characters can actually plan for and be aware of without undue metagame thinking.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
My problem with the potions is they can no longer serve the same role as a shared resource. If luck turns against a character (which can happen regardless of good tactics), you can't concentrate your potions on him to get him by. I think that's a real weakness of the internal healing that 4e relies on.
 

Bluewyrm

First Post
Ok, part of what inspired this question in the first place was a sort of general disappointment in one of the promises of 4e... That is, the "end of the 5 minute workday". Personally, there is nothing more anti-climactic to me then having to hold back on "pulling out all the stops" because as a player I might have another encounter later in the day. But, one of the beauties of 4e is they made "daily" resources less of an "all or nothing" proposition. With Vancian spellcasting, once a wizard or sorceror runs out of spells, he is basically useless afterwards. In 4e, while he may be out of daily abilities, he at least has his at-wills and encounters to rely on. So you are never completely screwed. You may not be as ready as you would like to be for the next battle, but you will at least be able to participate. Basically, it's more forgiving then a purely Vancian system.

However, the problem with the current Healing Surge/Hit Point system is there is no way to simulate this same "not 100% but still kicking" aspect. There is no equivalent "partially-ready" state when it comes to hit-points like there is with At-Will and Encounter abilities. Some people like this, they want part of the fun of role-playing to be resource-management. Some people, like myself, don't. My GM ended up house-ruling this, allowing you to regain up 75% of your hit-points with a short rest, which made it more in line with the current resource management system of combat powers. It sort of makes sense to... if you exercise really hard to the point of being almost unable to continue, right afterwards you are barely able to do much of anything physical. You are winded, you are tired, etc. But after a half hour of rest or so, you are able to function mostly normally again... but you likely won't be able to exercise like that again until you get a decent night's rest.

But the point isn't to need the house-rule. Hence my wonders if there were any other good ways to heal when you are out of surges. I totally understand why potions require surges to use, as it prevent players from just carrying around a sack full of them. And having a limited number of healing surges kind of makes sense in terms of a single combat, as you should reach a point where you just can't fight on any further (otherwise you would almost never have any mortal danger in a combat). But over the course of a full adventuring day, it not only conflicts with what many people will probably want thematically, but it also can lead to "holes" the players can't dig themselves out of.

Perhaps a good solution that doesn't really require a hefty rules change is a Ritual that lets you regain HP, where the material cost of the Ritual is a factor of your current level... In this way, the cost could be made to scale appropriately with a character's wealth, it requires at least a minimum of contingency planning so that the players have enough purchased Ritual components ahead of time, and wouldn't be usable in combat. More to the point, it could easily be released by WOTC in a future supplement without breaking, re-writing, or errata-ing any existing rules. As it's a ritual, GMs could easily make it "unavailable" if it doesn't suit their style of play, and likely no other rules would rely on it. Until that day though, I guess we will have to make do with a "30 minute workday"...
 

FadedC

First Post
If the rules won't permit the PC's to stock up on extra healing for an emergency ( for those "oh crap" situations) then its up to PC's to make sure those situations don't happen, thus the "pause" button for protagonist protection. Not allowing one or the other would be bad DMing and lead to many unfun TPK situations.

Well I'd say it's far better DMing to set up the encounter so that the players would like to rest but can't manage to and win by the skin of their teeth anyway. But it may take some experience for the DM to achieve that. But I'd say allowing the players to pause the game to rest any time they feel remotely threatened is far wose DMing then putting them in a situation where they are actually at risk. Your mileage may vary though. And obviously if the players reach a point where they clearly will die in the next fight if they continute the DM will have to decide on the consequences. In these cases allowing them to retreat and fail the adventure, or capturing the characters may both be far better then an arbitrary and unrealistic pause to rest.

The problem with this is that surges are a gamist construct that CHARACTERS shouldn't be planning around. The 4E rules might try and convince the player that thier character is unaware of these constructs yet they keep hitting the poor character in the head when making character based decisions. Bringing extra magical supplies is something that the characters can actually plan for and be aware of without undue metagame thinking.

Running out of healing surges means you've been taxed beyond the limits of what your body can handle. This is absolutely something the characters should be fully aware of.
 
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LostSoul

Adventurer
In 4E the PC are mighty heroes and the center of the universe. Why not just rest whenever you need to? As a PC, you are the central focus of the campaign and the world WILL wait for you to refresh. If the Big bad doesn't let the PC's rest before a major encounter then the DM must be doing something wrong.

That type of thinking is no more gamist than the rules that encourage it.

Yes, the DM is doing something wrong, because gamists want to be challenged. If you get to rest before every major encounter, and every encounter is a cakewalk for you, you have a poor game for the gamist set.

That type of thinking sounds most at place in a simulationist game.
 

SweeneyTodd

First Post
Comparing running out of surges with the "5 minute work day" doesn't really make sense to me -- it seems pretty difficult to run through all of your healing surges in a single encounter. And even if you get really beat up in one fight, it'd be a rare occasion when you'd have any reason to use more than three surges after a fight.

I guess this ties into the potions issue, because someone could drink their surges away in one fight through potions? Not sure I'm following. It could easily happen if you threw an encounter at the PCs that was way above level, though that's probably a separate issue.
 

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