Healing Potions seem odd

[JDillard]

But the point isn't to need the house-rule. Hence my wonders if there were any other good ways to heal when you are out of surges. I totally understand why potions require surges to use, as it prevent players from just carrying around a sack full of them. And having a limited number of healing surges kind of makes sense in terms of a single combat, as you should reach a point where you just can't fight on any further (otherwise you would almost never have any mortal danger in a combat). But over the course of a full adventuring day, it not only conflicts with what many people will probably want thematically, but it also can lead to "holes" the players can't dig themselves out of.

Here's a thought. What level are you playing? What are you basing it against?

At level 6, my paladin has 2/day and 1/encounter abilities to heal that either don't use surges at all (1/encounter power, the fantastic invigorating smite) or use his own rather high number instead of the target's (Lay on hands with a 14 wisdom).

Our Cleric has at least one if not two utility powers at this point that also heal without surge use.

Infernal warlocks get temp hp, warlords and clerics and paladins can gain or grant temp hp, all of which is effectively healing without surges.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this sort of healing is common. It's not. But it is there, and thus it's extremely valuable. As it is, the only time we've run out of surges in 6 levels was recently, when we took 4 major fights on in a row without pulling back to rest. We could have pulled back, but we kept pressing on because... well, because we hadn't really ever run out yet and that sorta gives you a feeling of invincibility after a while. This time we learned better.

 

[seusomon]

I think the 4e hitpoint/healing mechanics go a long way to fixing a sort of silliness that has plagued D&D since the very beginning. It's a silliness that has become so familiar, though, that many people take it for granted as being natural and logical.

Hit points are (and always have been) an abstraction to represent a character's capacity to "take a licking and keep on ticking". Healing magic (including potions, wands, etc.), as a fantasy element, adds atmosphere and fun when it allows a character to miraculously get through a combat situation that might otherwise have brought him down. After the encounter is over, characters rest and recuperate a bit, and then head out to face the next challenge. This is all nice fantasy drama stuff, like you might see in a book or movie.

Unfortunately, in previous versions of the game, it plays out that way only for low-level characters without many hit points or many modes of magical healing at their disposal.

Once you get a lot of money, magical loot, and spells, then healing loses much of its drama and charm. It becomes a commodity - pay out so many hundreds of gold pieces to restore so many hundreds of hit points. It's a game-mechanical work-around for something that ought to be simple. Why can second-level characters just rest after a tough encounter and start fresh the next day, while tenth-level characters have to spend cash on wands and potions to do the same thing? Toting around expensive magical items for a routine, mundane purpose (recovery after a fight) is just silly. It has no drama or intrinsic fantasy interest to it. That's why you never see healing working this way in a book or movie.

Healing surges help bring back the original spirit of magical healing - a few times during an encounter, you can get a magical "second chance" to revitalize yourself and keep on fighting when things otherwise look pretty bleak. But eventually, you reach the point where you've just done all you can do without stopping to recuperate. Gold pieces do not prevent that now; they never should have.

The 4e healing potion is not a bottle of hit points. You don't sit around after an encounter chugging them by the dozen just because you need to to make the game work. Instead, they are one of a few ways to get a magical boost when you really need one. They are especially effective for low-level characters, where 10 may easily exceed their normal healing surge value, and other in-combat healing options are limited or awkward to set up.

We're finally moving into a set of rules that keep the hit-point mechanic focused on what it is intended for: establishing the magnitude of threats a PC can face before reaching the end of his rope. Now, it no longer spills over into silliness like buying increasingly huge batches of healing magic or else sitting around for days to recuperate from an encounter just because you are high level.

 

[theNater]

However, the problem with the current Healing Surge/Hit Point system is there is no way to simulate this same "not 100% but still kicking" aspect. There is no equivalent "partially-ready" state when it comes to hit-points like there is with At-Will and Encounter abilities.

Where does a character with full hit points but 0 or 1 healing surges left fit on this scale? If there's no "not 100% but still kicking", is that character at 100% or not kicking?

 

[frankthedm]

So wait, a paladin that prevents the wizard from getting hit ISN'T performing their role?

Every one has a role, but everyone is also a member of the same team of equals. The defender is not there to die so the caster does not get hurt. Everyone has HP, Healing Surges and an AC that monsters are supposed to be able to hit. The paladin will suffer the brunt of the attacks, but a few javalins and energy bolts should still be coming the mages way. This is why everyone has around 20+ HP even at first level.

 

[Wish]

Maybe I wasn't being clear. Both 3.x and 4ed have daily resources for PCs and parties of PCs. In either case, a group can adventure roughly until they've exhausted their daily resources or are in danger of doing so. What 4ed lacks in any form is a way for PCs to, through use consumable items, extend their adventuring capacity, overcome unexpectedly dangerous conditions, or compensate for bad luck. That's a huge weakness in the system, to me.

3.X: Adventure for a while, cleric is almost out of spells, wizard used all his high level spells, rest. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat... oh crap, things have gotten out of hand! Ah, but we have prepared wisely for potential problems and have scrolls or wands or whatever.

4e: Adventure for a while, ranger is almost out of surges, only the warlock has his daily power left, paladin's lay on hands is gone, rest. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat... oh crap, things have gotten out of hand! TPK.

 

[JDillard]

That's a huge weakness in the system, to me.

3.X: Adventure for a while, cleric is almost out of spells, wizard used all his high level spells, rest. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat... oh crap, things have gotten out of hand! Ah, but we have prepared wisely for potential problems and have scrolls or wands or whatever.

4e: Adventure for a while, ranger is almost out of surges, only the warlock has his daily power left, paladin's lay on hands is gone, rest. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat... oh crap, things have gotten out of hand! TPK.

To each his own, I guess. What you view as a system weakness, I view as a strength.

Admittedly, you can play 4th just like you played 3rd, and you will probably end up with, as you say, TPK. You don't have those items anymore, so you shouldn't be dependant on them.

You don't stop when everyone's at 0 surges, out of dailies, and halfway down on HP. There's no way to time that correctly. You stop when you don't think you've got enough surges and dailies to get through one more encounter. That doesn't mean you're just stopping earlier than in 3.5, you still have a pretty decent amount of surges. 3-4 encounters per day seems pretty common amongst my group in 4th, and that was about where it was in 3.5 too so no major changes there.

In 4th, we're can't depend on our random magical stuff to get us out of bad situations anymore. Instead, when luck is against us and rolls go bad, we have to get creative to make our way out of the situation. Take the example in one of the above posts. Their paladin was out of surges and low on hp in a time critical situation. What'd they do? He hung back and threw javelins, while the strikers and other party members adjusted tactics to do without a Defender.

Sure that's maybe a bit challenging, but surviving it requires creativity, a bit of luck, and a lot of thinking on your feet. To me, that sounds like a lot more fun than "Ok, time to break out the scrolls and wands again." And if/when you do survive the situation, it's a heck of a lot more fulfilling a victory.

Remember, it's a new game. Time to adjust your thinking and expectations.

 

[FadedC]

One other thing I wanted to add is that the classic strategy of carrying around a few wands of cure light or lesser vigor in 3e is not exactly what I would call clever or resourceful any more then buying a longsword for your fighter is.

The first person who looked at the level 1 wands and realized it was a cheap way to make sure the party never had to worry about out of combat healing again.....he was clever and resouceful. I might even go so far as to say that the first 100 or 1,000 people to do it may have been. But the 100,000 people who copied those first people.......they were just going by the book and doing something that, like buying a weapon for your fighter, there was no reason to ever not do.

So it doesn't really particularly bother me that the current system doesn't reward people for being "resourceful" in this way.

 

[ryryguy]

My problem with the potions is they can no longer serve the same role as a shared resource. If luck turns against a character (which can happen regardless of good tactics), you can't concentrate your potions on him to get him by. I think that's a real weakness of the internal healing that 4e relies on.

I think this is a fair point.

Paladins have Lay On Hands which lets them "share" one of their own healing surges. And there are a few ways you can do "surgeless" healing (cleric Cure Light Wounds and similar powers). But these are pretty limited.

Perhaps some kind of "Lay on Hands in a Bottle" type of item might be appropriate. The idea of a potion doesn't work for this unless we bring backwash into the picture and nobody wants that... mystical jumper cables? I can't think of a good form for it off the top of my head. But I could certainly see having a consumable item that allows this.

 

[Runestar]

So it doesn't really particularly bother me that the current system doesn't reward people for being "resourceful" in this way.

What difference is it going to make. Sooner or later, someone is going to latch on to some winning combination which other people are going to replicate in some form simply because it is that good. What's wrong with trying a tried-and-tested method?

Do you deride other people in real life for lacking originality when they take painkillers such as panadol or aspirin when they have headaches, instead of searching for more "creative" solutions to their problem?

The same issue arises here. Yes, everyone has the right to be creative and search for alternative solutions to the same problem (really, that is how the wand of vigor tactic even came about in the first place, because someone thought out of the box!), but I certainly see no shame in just opting to go with what works.

 

[FadedC]

What difference is it going to make. Sooner or later, someone is going to latch on to some winning combination which other people are going to replicate in some form simply because it is that good. What's wrong with trying a tried-and-tested method?

Do you deride other people in real life for lacking originality when they take painkillers such as panadol or aspirin when they have headaches, instead of searching for more "creative" solutions to their problem?

The same issue arises here. Yes, everyone has the right to be creative and search for alternative solutions to the same problem (really, that is how the wand of vigor tactic even came about in the first place, because someone thought out of the box!), but I certainly see no shame in just opting to go with what works.

Note that I did not in any way imply there was anything wrong with people using a strategy that works. I was simply pointing out how removing that strategy between 3e and 4e does not punish clever or resourceful players, it simply removed an option that everyone used because of how strong was it was.