Hey amigo!
Interesting discussion - giving me lots of help and ideas here.
Indeed they would be. There are myriad other problems associated with going near a star, but with sufficient spellcasting, protections or immunity the worst of the issues would be negated.
If we simply rate the Sun as fire damage then it can be easily protected against - but I don't think that tells the full picture.
Most source books treat the sun as dealing heat damage and even being inhabited by fire elementals and Jyoti, it does deal pressure damage as well. The Pathfinder source material does state that fire elementals, Efreeti and Salamanders seem to be immune to the radiation, disintegration etc etc of the sun and that it's possible for Spellcasters to go there.
Sun - PathfinderWiki
Seems like a bit of a handwave by Pathfinder rather than a legitimate attempt to replicate the effects with in game mechanics.
I mean I can take Efreeti being immune to fire. But Pathfinder is saying they are Immune to:
Fire, Nuclear Explosions, Radiation, Electromagnetic Waves, Gravity and Pressure.
That's quite a list.
The surface of the Sun should be WORSE than taking a nuke to the face every round, yet Pathfinder have a House Cat as more of a threat to an Efreet than standing in a vast nuclear reactor.
You are kind of making all this up on the fly though, on a very basic level, you're the one who penned what does what and how right? So if you wanted to have gods only 'kind of immune' then why didn't you write that in at the time?
At the time I wrote that in I hadn't really considered Epic Environments as potentially interesting Hazards. I was probably inspired by a Thor comic where he ventures into the Core of the Sun to speak with the deity Atum.
And it's not just according to me, you're either immune to something or not. Even source material allows a fire elemental or other fire subtype creature to survive any level of heat, that doesn't mean they won't just die anyway from the universe itself delaminating at the planck temp but the heat won't be the thing that kills them.
At what point does fire become Plasma? At what point is Plasma seen as Quark-Gluon Plasma? When does Quark-Gluon Plasma become universe melting Planck temperature?
Plasma might not be 'Fire' but possibly treated as some Fire-Lightning Hybrid.
You seem to, and it kind of does, that and a high enough Damage Reduction and lightning resistance will reduce the majority of a star's effects.
Fire Immunity is exactly that.
But when its so hot atoms start to break down is that simply still Fire Damage....or something else?
Plasma, which the corona of the sun is made of, according to PF deals half lightning and half fire damage, both of which could be handled by a ring of elemental immunity or by polymorphing into a plasma elemental.
I'm happy with that - I have similar ideas.
The radiation poisoning should be able to be handled by a simple immunity to poison,
What if Radiation is half poison + half necrotic damage (to replicate the cellular decay)?
or again by polymorphing into a plasma elemental, or Ersatz, the bludgeoning damage from the pressure wave could be handled by a high enough DR or regeneration.
Lets say the Pressure at the Core of the Sun deals 1000 (force?) damage per round...at what measure of deity can you ignore (with DR) or regenerate it enough to ignore it? I'm guessing probably not at the Demigod level.
The only thing that remains is the Disintegration aspect which may be more difficult to deal with indeed but is that disintegration simply an effect of the previously stated aspects of the star itself? If it isn't and it's treated as actual disintegration damage, what are we treating that as? Magic? Or a non-elemental non magical untyped effect? If we're treating Disintegration as it's own element now and not a by-product of other energies ferocity then that adds a whole additional level to this but one without a clear means of handling, but as beings already exist comfortably on the sun itself, this becomes a problem and one that either has to be defined or ignored.
Disintegration might be half force damage + half thunder damage.
Then why make them gods? Why have them called gods if they're barely stronger than people? This is the fundamental crux of my position, right here? Why make or call them gods if their power is almost equivalent with a human? Demigods or lesser beings I can get your point. Hercules certainly shouldn't be able to survive any of that. But Apollo? Zeus? Pelor? Come on.
So by your own admission you probably wouldn't say a Demigod or Lesser God could survive a trip to the Sun.
As regards Apollo or Pelor certainly some portfolios are going to provide extra immunity - that's always a given. But that's not the point. the point is that if we want to use the Sun as an epic environment/hazard that we are assuming all the PCs are NOT immune to its effects but instead somewhat capable of surviving it for some period of time.
Just because Pelor/Apollo can survive a star unharmed, doesn't mean they should necessarily be able to survive a Black Hole unharmed. So different gods may be better at surviving different stellar/cosmic environments.
I get that, but I'm saying, how is that fun? If you don't trivialize some of the insane aspects of reality, you can't actually tell the story you are setting out to tell, you know, the point of dnd? You get inundated with mechanics and turning the game into a science simulator, which to a degree I like, and I think you should throw some science in, but to the effect of getting in the way of the campaign I disagree with. Adding in the color shift when travelling light speed for example is a nice touch to add, making the players feel the pressures and all of that is great whenever I have the players go into the atmosphere of a gas giant for example, which recently happened which is why I bring it up, I explain the way the character can feel the crushing gravity and the solid rains of ice and particulates, the thousand mile per hour winds, and the miles wide lightning bolts of tremendous intensity, but it isn't something that is a danger to them, they wouldn't explore these places if they were and given that one character is literally a planar cartographer, that would be unfortunate.
That's all fine and dandy, but it is still just a backdrop for the encounter - not a feature OF the encounter.
Where there is no risk, there is no reward. The players were not RISKING anything by travelling to that environment which could in no way injure or hamper them.
No one wants to spend years on a character to have them die an ignoble death on some backwater gas giant pointlessly. Bogging everything down just makes the game unplayable unless you want to have everything taking place planetside which seems like a lot of basic humans are going to constantly die and the planet will have to be infinitely be wished back into existence with all the damage divine level characters can dish out.
In D&D you can have traps or hazards which can injure player characters. I don't consider them bogging the game down.
As regards dying on some backwater gas giant...if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Just because it doesn't present a danger to the party doesn't make it a worthless mechanic,
If it doesn't present a danger to the party then they face no mechanics themselves.
it's like I said about hamhanded storytelling and using finesse as a DM the other day. You just have to use the tools at your disposal to make a story, it doesn't always have to be a possible threat to the players.
I completely agree with this - it doesn't always have to be a threat.
But we need the possibility that SOME environments CAN be a threat for Epic PCs or Immortal PCs or Sidereal PCs etc.
Having used these settings multiple times over the years i can say from experience that in reality it makes for new and exciting storytelling for both the DM who can let their imagination run wild and the players who suddenly will have a great story about fighting a god of death on the surface of a black hole.
You can still have that. What I am suggesting is that if you are using the black hole environment then have it affect the PCs in some way, especially first time through. They might eventually become powerful enough as to where the Sun, Black Holes etc. are zero threat, then they can look back and remember the time they almost died in that black hole (or whatever).
Moreover as something with intention can be used in my settings if a player was to throw an enemy into the black hole, I might very well allow it to work properly for that as there suddenly is an intent behind it vice a mindless mechanical effect.
If you threw a God into a Volcano, would it take fire damage. That seems a bit flimsy. Now if a Volcano was conjured with Epic Magic then I could see this line of reasoning (as was my initial stance).
It might be interesting on an intellectual level for the DM to have it work exactly like a real life black hole, spaghettifying everyone who gets close god and mortal alike, but to the players it's going to come off as unfun and suck ass to have their character permanently pwned. Black holes warp time itself, a god who fell in would be stuck as relative time would seem to speed up for them and universe would go on without them, they'd permanently die from the encounter, which I suppose if you're an naughty word you might find fun to, like tearing the legs off of an ant, do to your hapless players but I personally think that wouldn't be cool.
You seem to be thinking in black and white terms here.
I'm not saying you just die from it. I'm suggesting it has some measure of negative effects/damage which you will take dependent upon your time spent there or saving throws passed/failed.
Let me give a lower level example:
If you have a setting underwater for example in basic 3.5/Pathfinder and want to incorporate Aquatic Elves and Aboleth, then making the party constantly check the equivalent of pressure gauges is only A) going to dissuade players from wanting to attempt it, especially careful players and B) going to cause a headache for yourself in terms of making the setting playable. Don't you see that? You'll lose the story you're trying to write by making it so self involved. All the time and energy and love you put into a story or a part of a story can disappear in an instant if the players don't feel like it's actually feasible to succeed.
Players make a Con Save each round at the start of their turn or take 2d10* force damage from the pressure of the ocean. Simple.
*or whatever
From what you have said above it seems to suggest you are completely against using environments as hazards for anything, ever.
Ultimately the players need to actually be able to access areas effectively to do anything with them at all, otherwise it's entirely masterbatory.
Access doesn't always mean immunity. Having the environment be a threat puts a time factor to encounters, giving them an added level of danger.
Then why make the argument in favor of it then?
According to you that's the question, but that's not the question I asked, is it?
To answer your question however, let me answer your question with a question:
Conflicting source materials and choosing between a playable place a PC could actually go compared to a simulation of the actual effects of the sun itself is the actual question a DM will be faced with. If they want to actually use the sun in any playable way before level 120, they'll have to tone down the effects of the sun itself or allow things like Planar Adaption, the dreaded Natural Immunity and/or that pesky ring of Fire Immunity to simply suffice. Or the party will have to polymorph into beings already found on the sun itself. Otherwise it's utterly inaccessible and therefore mechanically irrelevant.
Planar adaption is not (or in my opinion should not be) Nuclear explosion adaption. The Plane of fire is just fire. Its not half a dozen different forces (several force based, like Gravity, Pressure and Explosions) conspiring to destroy you and rip atoms to shreds.
Beings that can live in a Sun need to be nuke-resistant Overgods or better, not Efreeti, Salamanders and that sort of creature.
That'd be cool af actually.
See book 3 for details (if I ever get that far).
Well, as I said, I'm not in favor of this, so I'm gonna decline on that one.
I agree, I was just throwing an idea out there.
Not at all, Abrogate can definitely be used to negate someone's Divine Immunity I'd argue. Send their little asses hurtling towards certain doom in a poof. lol. And why wouldn't a god use abrogation to use the environment as a weapon?
...and if that happens you need mechanics to cover THAT particular Epic Environment.
You're the only one who thinks like that man, maybe other people in this particular thread but I'm telling you, my players enjoy being able to freely explore space and do so without feeling like they're constantly going to die. Why would anyone think that's fun?
Do your players ever run into threats from Monsters and NPCs in these environments?
If so, are they exploring anything without the constant potential threat of them dying?
Moreover it isn't irrelevance. The before mentioned Superman reference from yesterday or whatever, an evil god may need an item that's falling into a black hole, they may have followers on worlds being bombarded by strangelets or Q-balls, a ship may have their mortal family onboard etc, it really isn't hard to add the danger aspect in whatsoever, you just find something the player cares about and exploit that.
I'm fine with establishing atmosphere and backdrop - not every environment needs to be a threat.
But by the same token why can we not have some environments be a threat to gods of a certain power? I don't see why you are necessarily against the principle of this?
Or like I just previously stated, abrogate their ass. OR have a black hole with a dead zone around it or a sidereal in it's core. It's not hard.
...which then requires the environmental mechanics.
They're some of the most interesting effects in the cosmos, being able to actually explore them is a very cool thing, it's why shows like Star Trek gained popularity. Also since only Gods have Divine Immunity it gives the players the ability to make safe divine realms and other places where only they can go, which gives them a very useful tool. It also allows for things like bad ass solar temples literally in the heart of a star to exist or a hammer forged in a black hole or a golem made in the center of the earth to actually make sense, otherwise they're entirely impossible to make unless you're level 320, at which point, why would you bother making those items?
Temple: As far as I now know the core of the sun would be pitch black and simply the violent reactions of condensed atoms with no space for light in between.
What if the Temple was on a cube shaped rock orbiting within the Corona of the Sun and the temple itself was slowly rotating meaning that you could ignore the full strength of the Sun while standing in the shadowy areas, but these would change every round as the temple spun - think of the temple itself as a sort of stonehenge layout.
Once the inhabiting deity/overgod etc. is bloodied, they decide to rotate the temple around a vertical axis as well meaning within 3 rounds you'll be taking the full solar damage.
Hammer: Who the heck is going to be able to use such a hammer anyway?
If 100% Orichalcum alone has a Str requirement of 115 to wield then you need to be a greater power/elder one, or strength portfolio deity intermediate god+ to even consider it.
For a weapon made from a black hole that minimum requirement goes up again.
If every Demigod can wield a weapon forged from a black hole then it would only cheapen having one.
Golem: Should be straightforward enough, depending upon how we rate Pressure damage.
