D&D 5E Help me optimize a Giant Frog/Toad build!!!

[faria]

The point of Giant Frog/Toad builds is to utilize the powerful Swallow ability, circumventing enemy HP. There are 2 ways to use this tactically:

(1) Enlarge/Reduce + Swallow = eat Medium/Large size enemies (make them small enough to eat)

(2) Haste + Bite + Swallow = 1-round meals (use the Hasted action to attack with Bite and then the standard action to Swallow)

Giant Frogs and Giant Toads are different, and toads are arguably the better of the 2. Giant Toads have a higher CR, making them tougher than frogs, and, more importantly, they are Large size. Being Large means they can Swallow Medium size enemies, meaning they rely less on Enlarge/Reduce. A lot of enemies, including most humanoids, are Medium size, so size matters (heh). Both Enlarge/Reduce and Haste require Concentration, so you can't cast both at once. Which one you pick depends on the circumstance. You won't usually be fighting Small or smaller creatures, so Haste is arguably less useful for Giant Frogs.

There are 5 ways to get a Giant Frog: cast Animal Friendship on one (lasts 24 hours), cast Awaken on one (lasts 30 days), cast Find Steed (requires Small race and DM's permission but works RAW), Wild Shape into one as a Druid, or pick one as a Beastmaster Companion.

There are only 4 ways to get a Giant Toad: cast Animal Friendship on one (lasts 24 hours), cast Awaken on one (lasts 30 days), cast Find Steed (not limited to Small races but still requires DM's permission), or Wild Shape into one as a Druid.

**For the record, Animal Friendship doesn't specify that the animal will obey you, only that you mean it no harm. So builds that rely on this spell may not be viable. It depends on the DM. Personally, I'd call for a few Animal Handling checks (with Advantage because it's Charmed) even after this spell is cast because the player still needs to 'train' it.

Build Options (F = only access to Giant Frog, T = access to both Giant Toad and Giant Frog [Toad is usually the better option in this case]):

Sorcerer or Wizard 3 or 4 T - Animal Friendship** and Enlarge/Reduce. Variant Humans can start with the Magic Initiate feat to learn Animal Friendship, but others have to wait until level 4 for the feat.
Sorcerer or Wizard 3/Druid 1 T - Animal Friendship** and Enlarge/Reduce. Druid dip instead of the Magic Initiate feat above. Seems dumb at first, but you free up an ASI (which you gain the next time you level up).
Sorcerer or Wizard 3/Nature Cleric 1 T - Animal Friendship** and Enlarge/Reduce. Same as above, but the main perk here is Heavy armor. It's MAD though so I doubt you'll have the STR to wear it.
Lore Bard 6 T - Find Steed and Haste. Can take Enlarge/Reduce at level 10. No multiclass needed! Bardic Inspiration dice can be given to your steed to land attacks.
Valor Bard 10 T - Awaken or Find Steed, Enlarge/Reduce, and Haste. You already know Awaken, but Magical Secrets gives only 2 out of 3 of the others. I recommend dropping Enlarge/Reduce. Find Steed is cheaper than Awaken (1000g component) and has no time limit.
Beastmaster 3/Lore Bard 6 F - Companion, plus Enlarge/Reduce and Haste from Additional Magical Secrets.
Beastmaster 3/Sorcerer or Wizard 3 F - Companion and Enlarge/Reduce. Can take Sorcerer or Wizard to 5 for Haste.
Beastmaster 11 F - Companion, plus Bestial Fury. Bestial Fury means getting off one round Swallows without Haste.
Moon Druid 2/Sorcerer or Wizard 3 T - Wild Shape and Enlarge/Reduce. You could use Animal Friendship instead of Wild Shape, but there's no point. Moon Druid can Wild Shape as a bonus action so you can cast Enlarge/Reduce and then Wild Shape on the same round. Access to Giant Toad form at level 2! Can take Sorcerer or Wizard to 5 for Haste.
Grassland Druid 5/Sorcerer or Wizard 3 F - Wild Shape, Enlarge/Reduce, and Haste. Slower than taking Sorcerer or Wizard to 5 in the above build though... And you have to wait until level 8 Land Druid to have access to Giant Toad form. Moon Druid is clearly a better option.

I think that's it... Which of these is the most optimal?

Final Thought: While Giant Toads are generally better options than Giant Frogs, Beastmaster's Giant Frog builds have 2 noticeable benefits: the companion HP buff (helps immensely vs AOEs at higher level) and Bestial Fury (can get off one round Swallows without needing Haste). Bestial Fury doesn't kick in until level 11 though... Most campaigns won't go too high though, so plan realistically around how many levels the campaign will take you through.

And before someone suggests it (even though it's brilliant out of the box thinking), no, a Duergar Druid using their Enlarge/Reduce daily racial spell won't work because you'd have to cast it while in Wild Shape, which is impossible.

 

[sulimo0310]

I am actually playing a Forest Gnome Beastmaster with a Giant Frog compainon and a 3 level dip in wizard for enlarge/ reduce. I can tell you from experience this build is hilarious, flavorful and fun. One thing to keep in mind is that for the Beastmaster version you are limited to Giant FROG as opposed to Giant TOAD. Giant Frog has CR 1/4 and Toad CR 1.

 

[faria]

Oh my god, I didn't even notice there were Giant Frogs AND Giant Toads!!!

Giant Toads are Large size, so a Medium size race can ride them! They are a bit stronger too. Hmmm.

I still think Beastmaster would come out on top, because they can add their Proficiency bonus (minimum of +2) to Frog attacks, both to hit and to damage. Then again, Bard gets to give their pet Bardic Inspiration, which probably matches the Beastmaster's bonus...

Let's flesh out those 2 options and see which is better:

(1) Forest Gnome Beastmaster 3/Wizard 3 with a Giant Frog (Finish Beastmaster 17/Wizard 3)
Spells: Enlarge/Reduce
0 ASIs but can get 2 in the next 2 levels. Honestly though, I'd keep Wizard at 3 to allow Beastmaster 17 for 5th level spells like Conjure Volley or Swift Quiver. Take Mounted Combatant next level and consider Inspiring Leader at Beastmaster 8.


(2) Variant Human Lore Bard 6 with a Giant Toad
Spells: Find Steed, Enlarge/Reduce
2 ASIs - Mounted Combatant, Inspiring Leader


Looks like Bard comes out ahead in the beginning but falls behind by the end. Also, Bard has to wait until 6. Beastmaster gets Bestial Fury at 11 too, so it come do the 1-round Swallow without Haste...

I gotta drive home. I'll edit this later and flesh these out more.

 

[famousringo]

If you're going to grab wizard levels, probably want diviner so you can force those Reduce saves through. I'm a little concerned about what happens to your frog when Reduce wears off, though...

So a Giant Toad might be the option that leads to fewer ruptured amphibian organs. I'm a little fuzzy on what you can actually do with mounts, though. Find Steed talks about fighting as a "seamless" unit, but doesn't actually say anything about the mechanics of getting a steed to attack. The mounted combat section talks about allowing a mount to fight independently, but it doesn't feel like RAI to allow a character and his steed to both have full actions when Beastmaster is so careful to conserve the action economy.

Something to check with the DM, I guess, while you're asking for the ability to summon a Toad with Find Steed.

 

[Yunru]

Personally I forgo the toad for a Bag of Devouring, and Enlarge/Reduce for Polymorph.
Good luck with that turning back when you're still stuck in a pocket dimension that eats everything.

 

[faria]

I like the idea of a Forest Gnome Beastmaster with 3 levels (or 4 for the ASI) of Divination Wizard for Enlarge/Reduce and Portent to force grapple save failures. I'd want Mounted Combatant to protect my froggy and keep him alive as long as possible.

How would you guys build this level by level? I need DEX, WIS, and INT 13+. I don't want a low CON either... Thankfully, Forest Gnome boosts both DEX and INT!

I think for starting stats: STR 8, DEX 13(+1), CON 12, WIS 14, INT 14(+2), CHR 12

For a weapon, Blowdart Gun would be cool for applying sleep and paralyzing poisons, but it does for damage. And honestly, you can apply those poisons to any weapon. I also considered Net, but the Swallow ability requires the target to be grappled, not just restrained. Whip makes sense but it just...sucks. So best just to stick to a Rapier if we want to be optimal. A shield would be good too, and would even open up the Protection fighting style, but I think that's overkill since we're already taking Mounted Combatant to protect the frog. Rapier and Shield and Dueling fighting style seems ideal.

The first 10 levels:

1-5 Beastmaster - Get the Giant Poisonous Snake companion, the Mounted Combatant feat, and Extra Attack ASAP.
6-9 Div Wizard - Get Enlarge/Reduce, Portent, and an ASI. I'm thinking Inspiring Leader (more Temp HP to keep pet alive from AOEs) or Warcaster for maintaining Concentration on Enlarge/Reduce. Switch to Giant Frog at level 8 when you pick up Enlarge/Reduce.
10-20 Beastmaster - Use future ASIs to grab Warcaster or Inspiring Leader (whichever you didn't take yet), cap INT (yes, you read that right), and consider Sentinel too. Getting Bestial Fury at 15 means we don't need Haste for one-round Swallows, so no need to take Wizard to 5.

Note: If you actually intend to spend a lot of time at level 20, don't take Wizard to 4, stay at level 3 so you can get 17 levels of Beastmaster and gain access to 5th level Ranger spells. They're quite strong. Most players aren't going to reach level 20 though, including myself, so I'm building more realistically and taking that 4th level for the ASI.

Unfortunately, this build means we can't cast Enlarge/Reduce until level 8, so we shouldn't even start with a frog! Also, the frog will only have 20HP until level 10. It seems like HP is the biggest hurdle to any frog/toad build that isn't straight Beastmaster. Still, Mounted Combatant and Inspiring Leader should be enough to mitigate a fair bit of damage taken. , if a Wizard can survive with 46HP at level 10, I think our frog will be just fine taking zero to half damage from AOEs and zero damage from direct attacks...

 

[famousringo]

IMO, Defensive Style is a better choice than Duelist. Most of your actions will be spent on beast attacks or spells rather than your own attacks, so +1 AC will modify more enemy attacks than +2 damage will apply to your own. Also, getting hit less means fewer concentration checks on Reduce.

Not getting Reduce until 8 won't be that big a deal. Restrained is still a great condition and well worth bringing a frog for. Also, ASIs are nice, but every level of wizard delays Bestial Fury some more. I say wait until you hit level 9 to decide how badly you want that extra feat.

Since Reduce and swallow are so important to you, it's worth considering trading gnome and wizard for halfling and sorcerer. Quicken takes a whole round off the Reduce > Bite > Swallow sequence you're building your character around, so it's just as good as Bestial Fury in a way. And Heighten and Twin offer alternative ways to force a save (whichever one of you two fails your save goes into the belly). Finally, if you start with a level of sorcerer, you get Con save proficiency.

Edit: I forgot to add that as a sorcerer, stacking Cha will help both your save DC and your Inspiring Leader.

 

[faria]

IMO, Defensive Style is a better choice than Duelist. Most of your actions will be spent on beast attacks or spells rather than your own attacks, so +1 AC will modify more enemy attacks than +2 damage will apply to your own. Also, getting hit less means fewer concentration checks on Reduce.

Not getting Reduce until 8 won't be that big a deal. Restrained is still a great condition and well worth bringing a frog for. Also, ASIs are nice, but every level of wizard delays Bestial Fury some more. I say wait until you hit level 9 to decide how badly you want that extra feat.

Since Reduce and swallow are so important to you, it's worth considering trading gnome and wizard for halfling and sorcerer. Quicken takes a whole round off the Reduce > Bite > Swallow sequence you're building your character around, so it's just as good as Bestial Fury in a way. And Heighten and Twin offer alternative ways to force a save (whichever one of you two fails your save goes into the belly). Finally, if you start with a level of sorcerer, you get Con save proficiency.

Edit: I forgot to add that as a sorcerer, stacking Cha will help both your save DC and your Inspiring Leader.

This is really solid advice. I like this idea. I'm a big fan of Divination Wizard's Portent for forcing failed saves, but Heightened Spell and Bend Luck (from Wild Magic) would work well too.

Let's try to build this:

Lightfoot Halfling Beastmaster 14/Wild Magic Sorcerer 6
Start: STR 8, DEX 12+2, CON 14, WIS 14, INT 8, CHR 15+1
1 Sorcerer for the CON save proficiency
2-4 Beastmaster for the companion (Giant Poisonous Snake is more optimal pre-Reduce...)
At this point, you could go for the 2 Sorcerer levels to get Enlarge/Reduce ASAP, but I don't think that's the best option. If we stuck to Beastmaster for 2 levels, we'll get an ASI for Mounted Combatant and Extra Attack. I think those are worth delaying Enlarge/Reduce for 2 levels.
5-6 Beastmaster for above reasons
7-8 Sorcerer to 3 for Enlarge/Reduce and Metamagic (Quicken, Heighten, and Twin are all useful), switch to Frog
At this point, you could go straight Beastmaster if you wanted, but I think getting Wild Magic Sorcerer to 6 for Bend Luck will help you the more with this Swallow build by making enemies fail their grapple saves. Also, more Sorcery Points means more uses of Metamagic. Finally, you have more spell slots. You actually have access to Haste too, but Enlarge/Reduce is a better use of Concentration.
9-11 Sorcerer for above reasons
12-20 Beastmaster for more pet HP and Bestial Fury


I had another interesting idea and that's to go Moon Druid 2/Divination Wizard 18. You're basically just a Wizard, but you start with the 2 levels of Moon Druid to be able to Wild Shape into a Giant Toad and eat people whenever you have the chance. You can Haste yourself too. You'd be 2 levels behind straight Wizards, but Moon Druids are stupid OP in early game so it balances out.

 

[faria]

Final idea then I'll put this thread to rest: Moon Druid 2/Divination Wizard 2/Wild Magic Sorcerer 6+.

By level 10 you'd have:
-2 Wild Shapes into Giant Toads (much better than frogs) per rest
-Portent x2 to force enemy saves to fail or force Bites to land
-Bend Luck to force enemy saves to fail
-6 Sorcery Points that can be used for Heightened Spell to force enemy saves to fail (or Twin Spell to hit 2 enemies at once)
-CON save proficiency for maintaining Concentration (if you start with Sorcerer at level 1)
-Enlarge/Reduce and Haste spells, and at higher levels Stoneskin

Requires 13+ INT, WIS, and CHR. CON doesn't matter because all Concentration checks will be against the Toad's CON (physical stats are replaced). Races and starting stats:
-Human STR 8+1, DEX 11+1, CON 13+1, WIS 13+1, INT 13+1, CHR 15+1
-Variant Human STR 8, DEX 12, CON 12, WIS 13+1, INT 13, CHR 15+1
-Half-Elf STR 8, DEX 11+1, CON 11+1, WIS 14, INT 14, CHR 14+2
-Lightfoot Halfling STR 8, DEX 8+2, CON 12, WIS 14, INT 14, CHR 15+1
-Forest Gnome STR 8, DEX 11+1, CON 14, WIS 14, INT 11+2, CHR 14

Feats:
-War Caster is a must for maintaining Concentration while in toad form. You'll be in the front lines very often and even enemies you've swallowed will attempt to fight their way out (with Disadvantage).
-Grappler gives your Swallow attacks Advantage after you've grappled an enemy with your Bite.
-Inspiring Leader is a good feat for boosting your own toad's temp HP, but allies would have to understand you to gain the benefit too, so you'd have to take the Message cantrip for this to work.
-Alert so you can get the 'jump' on enemies.
-CHR for landing Enlarge/Reduce, though you will probably be casting Haste more often as a toad. Also, Heightened Spell and Bend Luck will do more for you than a capped CHR.

Leveling order:
1 Sorcerer for CON save proficiency
2-3 Moon Druid for Wild Shape
4-6 Sorcerer for Metamagic and an ASI (War Caster)
7-8 Div Wizard for Portent
9-10 Sorcerer for Bend Luck
11-20 Probably just continue Sorcerer for more Sorcery Points and 3 more ASIs

I squeezed Div Wizard in after the first ASI because Portent will do more for us than Bend Luck at that level (with so few Sorcery Points). Ask if spells like Aid will boost the HP of your toad if you cast it on yourself before Wild Shaping.

 

[famousringo]

You need Druid 4 for Giant Toad. It has a swim speed.

Also, you can't cast Message as a toad. But what the hell, throw a level of Great Old One Warlock on the pile for telepathy. Be an inspiring hypnotoad.