Help Needed: Creating a fantasy rules system using 2d10

Hello all,

I’ve been exploring using a 2d10 instead of a d20 for a rules system I’m trying to make. The game utilizes the ability score formula from 5E D&D but the issue I’m having, is that while early game you have a better chance to succeed on hitting monsters and succeeding on saving throws, higher DCs and ACs are feeling like they might become problematic. I’m aware of the dice’s curve, and I am also aware that using a 2d10 system also makes achieving Criticals much rarer, and while I have a solution to that, I worry that the overall problem with reaching for higher numbers per roll might be an issue.

If anyone has any constructive criticism, ideas or questions that might help resolve this, I’d like to hear it.

Thanks,
MS
 

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It's a bit hard to provide any constructive criticism about just the use of 2d10 without knowing the rest of the system.

One idea for crits though: doubles. If you roll doubles on the 2d10 and succeed, it's a crit. This will also make criticals somewhat more likely if you're good.
Basically, I'm using the same ability score mods as 5E, however, proficiency bonus is done away with and substituted with a point system. You can choose (each time you receive points) how you want to distribute them. At creation, no stat can have more than 2 points (basically the equivalence of +2 proficiency). Characters' final level is at 12th level and the max points they can distribute is up to four (which is the same mod as the +4 proficiency bonus starting at level 9). I realistically will use some form of Expertise as well so that certain specialized classes feel like specialists.

I am actually using the doubles idea for crits currently. 1-5 is a failure, 6-0 is a success. Depending on the matching numbers you will roll on a Critical table. I believe this achieves a 5% chance of rolling any crit, the same percentage as a d20.
 
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ichabod

Legned
I am actually using the doubles idea for crits currently. 1-5 is a failure, 6-0 is a success. Depending on the matching numbers you will roll on a Critical table. I believe this achieves a 5% chance of rolling any crit, the same percentage as a d20.
I think this could be a problem. Say the DC is 12, and you have a +3. You roll two 5s for 13 total, but you critically fail even though you beat the DC.

And you are definitely going to have problems with the higher DCs. Your chance of rolling a 20 has gone from 5% with a d20 to 1% with 2d10. Any roll above 16 is going to have a lower probability, and getting over 16 in general drops from 20% with d20 to 10% with 2d10. You are going to have to change the DCs or have more bonuses.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I’ve been exploring using a 2d10 instead of a d20 for a rules system I’m trying to make. The game utilizes the ability score formula from 5E D&D but the issue I’m having, is that while early game you have a better chance to succeed on hitting monsters and succeeding on saving throws, higher DCs and ACs are feeling like they might become problematic. I’m aware of the dice’s curve, and I am also aware that using a 2d10 system also makes achieving Criticals much rarer, and while I have a solution to that, I worry that the overall problem with reaching for higher numbers per roll might be an issue.

If anyone has any constructive criticism, ideas or questions that might help resolve this, I’d like to hear it.
You’ve mentioned the expected range of PC modifiers, but what is the expectation for target numbers? It sounds like they’re expected to scale, but by how much? What’s the standard difficulty for a 1st level character versus a 12th level one?

When I worked on the math for my homebrew system, which uses 2d10, though I don’t think that matters; I looked at how the numbers scaled within the context of my basic progression assumptions, using both AnyDice and a spreadsheet to plot out the various percentages across both modifier and target number. When I design mechanics, I use those numbers as a sanity check to make sure things scale and work as expected.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
. . . And you are definitely going to have problems with the higher DCs. Your chance of rolling a 20 has gone from 5% with a d20 to 1% with 2d10. Any roll above 16 is going to have a lower probability, and getting over 16 in general drops from 20% with d20 to 10% with 2d10. You are going to have to change the DCs or have more bonuses.
Begging to differ. The roller's whole bell curve shifts when you assign integer bonus points. A PC with +5 to, let's say, attack has the same odds of success against an AC 15 as the PC with +0 against the AC 10. It's when there's a significant difference between the roller's bonus and the DC that would make things seem . . . tricky.

You have a +0 against your opponent's DC 14? That could be kind of difficult. But maybe a DC 14 is supposed to be difficult. And maybe it's supposed to be common fare if you also have +4 on your roll.

Reaching higher numbers at higher levels is only problematic here if the rate of bonus gain doesn't match the rate of DC increase. That's not necessarily a flaw.
 

Begging to differ. The roller's whole bell curve shifts when you assign integer bonus points. A PC with +5 to, let's say, attack has the same odds of success against an AC 15 as the PC with +0 against the AC 10. It's when there's a significant difference between the roller's bonus and the DC that would make things seem . . . tricky.

You have a +0 against your opponent's DC 14? That could be kind of difficult. But maybe a DC 14 is supposed to be difficult. And maybe it's supposed to be common fare if you also have +4 on your roll.

Reaching higher numbers at higher levels is only problematic here if the rate of bonus gain doesn't match the rate of DC increase. That's not necessarily a flaw.
The ideal goal is to keep AC, DCs and monster stats the way they are. I plan on releasing a blue print on how to take 5E monsters and convert them to this system. However, I might be getting in over my head with all of this. I'm not against the idea of using a d20, but I also don't want to create something that essentially becomes 5E with a new coat of paint.

Ability scores will stay the same, a 18 will still be a +4, etc, but where everyone starts out is by essentially customizing their character's aptitude in various saving throws, skills, specialties and weapons. I plan on giving each character enough points to start them off at the equivalent of a +2 proficiency bonus to the stats that make most sense for their class. However, if a player wishes to use the points and spread them out, yes they won't be as apt to succeed in specific categories but they will have bonus to more things than the standard 5E Character starts with. However, this is also where my concern about using 2d10 comes in. Because of the curve, is the bonus system I have in place enough or will there need to be a secondary way of achieving bonuses in some way?
 

ichabod

Legned
Are you saying they would have a +2 bonus over their normal bonuses, for those class-specific stats? Say you have a character who has a +5 bonus (normal 5E) trying a DC 15 task. They have a 55% chance of success. With 2d10, they have a 64% chance. With 2d10 and an extra +2, they have a 79% chance. So tasks that are average for a character are going to be much easier. The same character with a DC 20 task has a 30% chance with a d20. With 2d10, they have a 21% chance. With 2d10 and a +2 bonus, they have a 36% chance. So without the bonus they have a worse chance, but with it they have a better chance. With a DC 25, the normal chance is 5% (they have to roll a 20). With 2d10, that drops to 1%. With 2d10 and a +2 bonus, that goes up to 6%. So 2d10 with a +2 bonus is easier than 1d10, how much so depends on how hard the task is for the character.

Since you say this is going to class specific stats, characters will have an easier time with class specific actions, and a harder time with other actions (unless it would be a pretty easy task for them any, anything needing more than a 12 on the roll).
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I'm not against the idea of using a d20, but I also don't want to create something that essentially becomes 5E with a new coat of paint.
The discussion so far is pointing directly at "5e with a new coat of paint." Abilities the same, ACs, DCs, saving throws, proficiency bonus. You're on well-traveled ground, to put it mildly.

As an example of steering away from another 5e, take a look at my Core Rules Module (click) here. Once you're over the irony of the use of the "Core Rules" choice of words, you might find:

  • Rule Zero. Yeah, so far, so D&D. Or any RPG.
  • Rule One, campaign theme. Typical RPG, but D&D sort of imposes its own theme.
  • Rule Two. The GM rolls a d20 too? There's a D&Diversion.
  • Rule Three. There's no Succeed or Fail. NOW we're diverging from a lot of RPGs, not just D&D.
There are many more diversions in the next 80 or so rules. But my point is that not making another 5e starts at ground level. Using 2d10 to resolve conflicts is cool, but it will take a bit more to break out of The Shadow Of The World's Greatest Role-Playing Game.
 

The discussion so far is pointing directly at "5e with a new coat of paint." Abilities the same, ACs, DCs, saving throws, proficiency bonus. You're on well-traveled ground, to put it mildly.

As an example of steering away from another 5e, take a look at my Core Rules Module (click) here. Once you're over the irony of the use of the "Core Rules" choice of words, you might find:

  • Rule Zero. Yeah, so far, so D&D. Or any RPG.
  • Rule One, campaign theme. Typical RPG, but D&D sort of imposes its own theme.
  • Rule Two. The GM rolls a d20 too? There's a D&Diversion.
  • Rule Three. There's no Succeed or Fail. NOW we're diverging from a lot of RPGs, not just D&D.
There are many more diversions in the next 80 or so rules. But my point is that not making another 5e starts at ground level. Using 2d10 to resolve conflicts is cool, but it will take a bit more to break out of The Shadow Of The World's Greatest Role-Playing Game.
I guess I phrased things poorly on my end. My goal is to make sort of a hybrid of 5E and OSR material, similar to how Five Torches Deep doesn't claim to be specifically OSR, nor is it completely a reskin of 5E, it borrows bits of both.

At the moment I'm using the ACs/DCs/Saves from 5E so that I have a template to convert monsters and other challenges to work within this system. Proficiency bonus is done away with, but at the start of the game you do have the ability to make your character with the same stats as you would get with your starting class in 5E. The divergence is that if you want to put stats all over the place, instead of having the standard +2 prof. in specific skills, weapons and saving throws, you can totally do that. The other thing with this rules set is that skills are no longer tied to ability scores. There are six categories of skills broken into two descriptive words. It works like this, the GM can call for a skill check or the PC can propose a skill check, naming one of the 6 skill categories, the player then gets the option to come up with a creative way to incorporate one of their ability scores to add to their skill bonus. For example, a player is in a new city, and the group as a whole has experienced several cities prior to this one. That player wishes to search the city for a black market, but their Awareness/Insight skill isn't very high. They propose an Wisdom (Cunning/Subterfuge) check to the GM. Their pitch is that they want to use their gathered experience from other cities to help them find familiar signs that might lead them to the black market. The same player could also use Charisma (Cunning/Subterfuge) to slyly ask the locals of a nearby and shady tavern for information that might lead them to the location.

Another divergence (and yes I understand there are problems with this currently) is that there are no damage dice. Hits are one for one. This also results in the fact that you do not roll for hit points, each character starts with 2 points of a primary HP equivalent and 1 point of a secondary HP equivalent, and they gain an additional 2 points of primary HP and a varying amount of secondary based on class. The problem currently is trying to factor in the concept of resistances and halving damage. Although I'm not sure those two factors are entirely necessary overall. A barbarian's rage is also affected by this as well, and I'm still working on that.

Inspiration is also done away with in this system and replaced with a pool of d4s that you can acquire throughout sessions. They can be rolled to increase your likelihood to succeed on ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws (no more than 2d4 per challenge), or they can be used in other ways. Each player will start the game with 1d4 and will have a maximum number of them that they can have at any given time. There is a list of factors that allow you to gain these dice, and they will be available on a separate sheet that you can print out and leave in the center of the table which will also contain a list of all the actions you can take on your turn. The d4s are left in the center of the table and when a player meets a requirement, they simply take a d4 and add it to their pool. These dice can also be granted to players similar to how inspiration is awarded in 5E by the GM.

This system also utilizes equipment slots as well as two forms of encumbrance (one is standard, the other is more complicated and optional). The equipment slots diagram on the character sheet shows you what you have direct access to (which costs one action). Anything in your backpack costs two actions to find and use. In regards to your backpack, this is where the standard encumbrance rule comes into place. There is a section on your character sheet showing your backpack's contents. If at any point you do not have room to write anything else in this section, you simply can't carry it and must discard it. Along with this restriction you cannot carry more than 1,000 coins total. There is also the optional rule that items have a unit value of weight and your character can only carry a number of units equal to 10 + your STR modifier.

There are other interesting changes made as well that I will probably share at some point but keeping with the subject of this thread I don't wanna go off on too much of a tangent here.
 
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