Help with an Alchemist Class

[JDowling]

perhaps I misunderstood what you ment by, "I would suggest limiting alchemists on "value" rather than weight."

I was assumeing you ment GP value, but was obviously mistaken. Did you mean to limit it as a DM call each transmutation?

I think FMA possibly lost something in the translation for the anime and manga. I reciently read issue 3 I think of the manga where Edward turns 2 tons of slag into gold to uh, do stuff (trying to avoid spoiler). So, "equal exchange" is obviously not monitary (as you pointed out it shouldn't be anyway).

The best I could see was weight/mass for weight/mass... but then they introduce some other ideas like, "what is the worth of a human soul?" As in, they failed to bring back their mother because nothing was worth that much (or as Al, i believe it was, says, "I don't think there is anything in the world worth that.").

I guess I largely put in the weight / volume limit to keep a player from saying, "I turn the city walls from stone into sand" and having me fumble as to why they probably can't transmute that much all at once. If you recall Edward moving the huge statue in episode 2 was a feat that stunned the (admitedly puny) alchemist priest... on the other hand, maybe they aren't limited in that way?

Could you clarify what you ment by limit by value?

 

[FrankTrollman]

I was assumeing you ment GP value, but was obviously mistaken. Did you mean to limit it as a DM call each transmutation?

No - I mean a limit on quality. It doesn't really matter how much non-masterwork equipment you can scavenge up at 3rd level - and there's really no point in trying to limit the amount of masterwork equipment a 6th level character can have.

Similarly, a 12th level character can just go ahead and create small creatures - spellcasters could just do that anyway. 15th level characters could raise the dead.

In the meantime, you might want to set an alchemical DC limit as some sort of interim thing. Certainly, a problem you run into is that a cubic meter of two different things will have extremely different effects upon the game. Right now, using shadow magic or high arcana to duplicate Major Creation with a standard action is an actual exploit - the creation and fabrication effects are an edge case which severely undermine game balance. So building a character class around them is inherently problematic.

-Frank

 

[FoxWander]

Hey, cool idea. Now I'll have to get my hands on some eps of FMA. Anyway, I would suggest a spin on the Bard's Music ability- replacing skill with Craft(Alchemy) for the Bard's Perform skill. This would give an Alchemist the "creation" abilities that just taking the alchemy skill wouldn't get you. The abilities gained thru "Alchemy Master" (or whatever you think this ability should be called) at level/skill limits would set the complexity of "thing" they can create- simple solid forms, complex forms, forms with moving parts, automatons, intelligent automatons, etc.. Then assign appropriately high skill levels for the quality they can create just like any Craft skill. The quantity of material you can alter is still a major effect on play (to avoid the 'city walls into sand' problem) and that would probably best be handled by Alchemist class level separate from skill level. That way a low-level, but somehow expert alchemist, could create wondrous, but small, things but it would take a powerful alchemist to animate a large statue (or whatever).

Of course, bear in mind, I've never seen the show so I don't know the full "flavor" you're coing for, but I love the idea. I've wanted to make a similar "gadgeteer" type class for quite awhile. But I've never liked the problem Frank brought up where most characters like that are basically designed to stay in the background and equip everybody else with cool stuff. I want a character who uses the things he creates himself to be an equal member of the party. I like the idea that's been suggested that maybe only the Alchemist can use what he makes freely, perhaps there could be a special ability or feat that would allow passing items on to others. (I don't know, I'm just thinking)

Oh, one more thing- on the idea of "magic bullets" and such. With a simple shift in perspective it's easy to see Wands as "Magic Guns" and Potions/Scrolls as "Enchanted Bullets". One item I wanted to make for the SteamPunk MagiTech setting I've vaguely been developing is a "Gun" which is basically a pistol that accepts Wands as ammunition. Any class can then fire the Gun but it burns thru wand charges quicker.

Anyway, let me know if any of those ideas are useful.

 

[Draugin]

Sorry I didn't answer before but yesterday I had many problems loading ENWorld pages and at the end I stopped before smashing the keyboard (I hate sloooooow loading times).
I haven't heard about the Full Metal Alchemist series before, but from what you've said it sounds very cool! I like alchemy as a fantasy subject (with some historical perspective) and each reference to alchemy instead of the abused magic is appreciated!

Ok, stop chattering and let's start with the hard work.
My alchemist is more on the Wizard side (d4, poor BaB, etc.) because he's mainly a scholar, but obviously for balance reasons I know you had to put that d8 and other stuff.
The fact is that I've developed (still work in progress) an opera system similar to spells system and without that I don't know how to make a balanced alchemist class. The alchemist has got some other cool features like Extemporary Craft - similar in concept to what FowWander said, an "alternative bardic music" - , but the core power of the class comes from the opera per day (just as not all bard's power comes from bardic music).
Other that transmuting objects, I think alchemists could do a lot of incredible (and nonmagical) things (you also said that). Frankly, I admit my limit and I don't see how to create a list of stuff the alchemist can daily do (in D&D rules) without putting some "slots" or something. I'm talking about "daily" power just because we want the alchemists to be adventurers and not lab guys, uh! They can craft alchemical long-term items, sure, but they must have something they can do during every encounter!

Suggestion for what the alchemists can do (concepts from the opera list of my alchemist):
-prepare healing concoctions;
-boost abilities with drugs;
-craft chemicals (poisons, acid, et cetera);
-generate creatures (from plants or vermin to Homuncoli);
-craft explosives;
-enhance special properties of materials (i.e. magnetism);
-modify materials (hardness, hit points, weight...);
-transmute materials;
-physical alteration (yes you didn't want it, but this is a branch of my alchemist);
-metaphysical approach to items (modify the quintessence of an object);
-...

Yes I know those items don't say a lot but there's a lot more I could add... just ask something.
Those are only very loose definitions. For example, "chemicals" range from 1st level noxious aroma to 9th level acid rain.

Ah just for Frank Trollman's problem, I should say that each opus has to be triggered* by the alchemist before being employed. (* instant-translation from the Italian innescare, I don't know how it sounds).
Triggered opera can be used (nearly) by anyone but there is a sort of decaying time that prevents an alchemist from triggering all his opera and giving them to allies. And since he can use most of these opera better than other PCs, I'm sure in most cases he won't depart from his toys.
AND each untriggered opus degenerates 24 hours after preparation. So there is no balance problem and the alchemist has an active role in the party.

Tell me what you think, and if you need some clarifications I'm here!

 

[JDowling]

The following is what i had done this morning pretty much, but i'm going to take another look at it based on the posts (lots of good thoughts in them, thank you).

Creating a Substance (raw material):
Substance, DC
Valuable Metals/Gems, 20
(Gold, silver, ruby, etc)
Darkwood, 20
Mithral, 25
Adamantine, 30
Glassteel, 30
Ironwood, 30

Making a regular item: An alchemist can make any item that can be made with a craft skill (or the standard alchemy skill). The alchemist must have the appropriate craft skill, and sufficient raw materials of the proper element at hand. If both of those prerequisites are met then the alchemist rolls a craft check against the DC for the item as outlined in the player’s handbook under the craft skill.

If the roll succeeds: The item was crafted, and has statistics as if it were a normal item.
If the roll fails by 5 or less: The item was crafted, but is crude. In the case of a weapon the item does –1 damage, in the case of armor the AC is 1 less. Other items give –1 to any check made involving them (rope use with a flawed rope, etc).
If the roll fails by more than 5: The transmutation was unsuccessful, the result is a lump of vaguely appropriate material in the vaguely appropriate shape. Other options are that the item looks fine, but is too brittle to be useful. DMs are free to use their imagination in description.

Creating a masterwork item: For an alchemist to create a masterwork item with an alchemical transmutation they must make the item as per “Making a regular item” and succeed the roll, then at the same time they must roll a second craft roll (DC 20) to make it masterwork.
Turning an existing item into a masterwork item: To do this, the alchemist must make an alchemy check DC 20 to determine if they can alter the item with enough control, then succeed a craft check DC 20 to complete the task.

START EDIT: Just to make the system more clear i'll outline a specific example.
Carlos the 12th level Alchemist decides that what he really needs right now is a masterwork adamantine longsword. Carlos has an Int of 20, alchemy skill of 15 (total with int mod: +20 to alchemy checks), and weaponcrafting of 15 (+20 mod).

Carlos wants to do this all in one round, so he rolls an alchemy check to see if he can create the adamantine (DC 30). Next he rolls a weaponcrafting check (DC 15, martial weapon). Finally, he rolls a weaponcrafting check (DC 20) to see if the final product is masterwork. If he makes all the checks 6 seconds later he has the sword he wanted, if he fails some of the checks different stuff happens.

Then I have a series of feats that mimic brew potion, scribe scroll (magical bullets, offensive spells only, up to 3rd level), craft magic arms & armor, a "create auto mail" feat (automail adds to str, dex, ac. weighs a lot, has a fairly low armor check penalty, AC bonus doesn't stack with regular armor).

Draugin - what sort of physical alterations can alchemists do in your work? Also, if it's not too much to ask would you mind sharing some more information about the creatures they can make and the "metaphysical approach to items"?

FoxWandor: I'm already diviating from the flavor of the series a bit to mesh the ideas more with the world i'm building. I like the idea of building the class similar to a bard, I hadn't really thought of that (I never liked playing bards ). I bet it would give a good mix of special abilities (transmutations), skills, and enough combat prowess to use what they make (Edward and Al can fight pretty well in the series). The bard thing might be a way to leave the alchemist powers pretty open but limit uses per day.

FrankTrollman: I think I got what you were saying about quality, that's where I came up with the current "DC system" for special materials and higher quality. Basically I made it so alchemically crafting "non-magical" items was an instantanous craft check. Thus if a character of that level can build it anyway, the alchemist can (but do it on the spot).

the following may contain very small spoiler into history of series - you have been warned

Other interesting side note: In FMA you can't perform "human transmutations", however, Edward was able to save his brother Alphonse from death by transfering his spirit (using alchemy) to be bound to a suit of armor instead of his body. This makes Alphonse immortal (as is noted in issue 5 of the manga in a sort of "funny parody of the series" comic). I'm not sure if by human transmutation they simply mean no bringing back the dead, but Edward was able to prevent the death of his brother (by tradeing his leg) by tieing his soul to a suit of armor.

 

[gpetruc]

@Draugin

Oh well, the system I've been developing is very near to what you've said and you're looking for...
For now, I've been a little slowed down by university but I've written some 170 pages so far of alchemy and weird demiurgical stuff. The only problem it's that those "some 170 pages" are now totally chaotic and in Italian!

I'm really interested in it ... and Italian is no problem, I'm Italian too. could you please post it on the forum (even if is still chaotic and incomplete ... just to have a look)?

 

[Draugin]

I'm really interested in it ... and Italian is no problem, I'm Italian too. could you please post it on the forum (even if is still chaotic and incomplete ... just to have a look)?

Thanks! Uhm I don't think it's a good idea to post something in Italian on the forum... only you and I (and maybe some other guy) could understand.
I'm going to build up a rough site in Italian & English so I can put in some of my work.
And I assure you, it needs some restilying, it's not only chaotic and incomplete but also wrong, with errate references whitin (there are some parts I've written even 2 years ago) and some conceptual issues I've to resolve before going on.
And since I'm terribly precise, I won't show anything I'm not happy with.
Anyway, I'll let you know when I have something done. (2-3 weeks of work)
Ciao!

 

[FrankTrollman]

I can only infer a little bit of Italian from my extremely limited knowledge of Latin or Spanish. Thus, I couldn't be expected to be able to understand a post in Italian at all.

Nevertheless - I say go for it. Compared to all the stuff on these forums I never read because I don't care, a couple of posts I simply don't understand aren't going to set me on fire or anything.

Post it in whatever language you feel most comfortable in - as much as we can puzzle out with knowledge of other languages - we will. And whatever we can't understand we'll either let lie or ask you questions.

-Frank

 

[Gellion]

After reading this thread. I am reminded of an old Super Nintendo game called Secret of Evermore. In it, the main character could mix different ingredients and make different effects happen. Although i never got very far in it.

 

[JDowling]

as for the origonal class I've pretty much settled with a "bard-like" build (similar spells per day, a transmutation ability that is a knock off of bardic music sort of thing, etc). I am just trimming it around a bit, so thank you all for the ideas, I may post a completed version if anyone is interested (or for balance opinions).

I just wish I could read Italian, then I'd be amongst everyone else asking Draugin to post his stuff heh =).