Hero into Dragon into Archmage rinse repeat

[The Crimson Binome]

Ancient metallic Dragons have change shape, which doesn't care about the spell casting trait, only class abilities, and since all creatures in the monster manual are in essence, not creatures advancing in classes, you should be able to use the spellcasting from the archmage monster.

The archmage is not a monster. It is an NPC.

 

[BookBarbarian]

"Change Shape: The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon’s choice). In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form."

I'd rule that spell-casting is a class feature of the Archmage. And as such is not available for the dragon to use, however I also use spell-casting Dragon variants so it doesn't really matter for my game.

 

[Balfore]

The archmage is not a monster. It is an NPC.

For real? Even if it's in the Monster Manual? And used to attack the heroes?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Balfore]

Nope. In no way is an archmage an example of a new form as referred to in the 4th level spell Polymorph. Even the 9th level spell Shapechange doesn't confer such abilities to the recipient of the spell.

"...You transform into an average example of that creature*, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait..."

*Examples of creatures would be goat, pixie, manticore...etc. Not an archmage.




The actual spell descriptions (Polymorph and Shapechange) reflect on this. No ruling is required.

Apologies, was referring to the True Polymorph spell

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Balfore]

You can't transform into an archmage; an archmage is an NPC not a creature. The creature is whatever humanoid happens to have levels of wizard. At least that's how I've always ruled it; there's a difference between class and creature.

Also, humanoids are creatures. Spells that target a creature can target a humanoid

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Balfore]

What's allowing the pc to change into a dragon and what's allowing the dragon to transform?

The dragon's Change Shape ability, which it apparently keeps in its new form....


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Balfore]

Forget whether it is legal or not - it is broken. Even if it were a gap in the rules, it should not be allowed as it breaks the game. I applaud PCs for clever use of spells, but I would not allow them to do this silliness as it destroys the integrity of the combat system by giving infinite spells.

For folks trying to figure out what is discussed here, I think it is:

20th Level wizard polymorphs a 20th level PC into an ancient Brass Dragon that uses the Dragon Shape Change ability to become an Archmage with the full contingent of archmage spells. Spells are cast, and then the Dragon becomes an Archmage again and that, in theory, refreshes the spells.

Precisely, the Level 20 caster, True Polymorphs onto an ancient brass, then uses Change Shape (which it retains in the new form), now has access to high level spells.

I now have the problem that we are resetting Saturdays game because the rules are all wonky.

The Bard wants to instead, be able to True Polymorph into only the Archmage instead of the dragon. They will all have a boon. Would the boon carry over to the new form?

Is the Archmage able to cast spells because his old form was a Bard?

Does antimagic field supress the True Polymorph? (Yes, he concentrated for an hour). This is a massive debate as there are 2 schools of thought.
1. The permanency only applies to not having to concentrate, and can still be dispelled.
2. It's permanent and cannot be dispelled, and thus, the antimagic field would not work.

He made a Simulacrum of himself as a Bard, and the Simulacrum did the same thing. So, what would the antimagic field do to a Simulacrum, that has concentrated on True Polymorph for an hour, and is now an Archmage?

This is a combat session that will last all night. It's epic level (20+ boon).

I found it frustrating and difficult to run, and players weren't having fun.
"If you want to kill is, just do it..."
"These saves are rediculous...."
Etc... I want it to be hard, even to the point of last man standing.

In the last sessiom, there were essentially 2 bards (same player, with a Simulacrum), which were both now Ancient Brass Dragons that changed into Archmages.
1 Paladin with a Scarab of Protection
2 Barbarians
1 Life Cleric

That's a total of 18 legendary resists on the dragon's and paladin. Makes for a long night. It went into over time.
The complaints and gripes, combined with mental fatigue at the end of the night was too much, and I said "just forget it, if you want it easy, then we can just stop...I'm done".
This is a group we have played with for at least 20 years. All friends.
I'm just not very good at the mechanics, rules and apparently, being a DM.
it's my 2nd time DMing our group.

Just trying to get some rulings that make sense.
Sorry for being long winded.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[cmad1977]

I would have disallowed the option to become an Archmage right on the spot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jaelis]

The Bard wants to instead, be able to True Polymorph into only the Archmage instead of the dragon. They will all have a boon. Would the boon carry over to the new form?

Up to you, but I would probably let the boon remain functional.

Is the Archmage able to cast spells because his old form was a Bard?

Not if you play the sensible way, that the archmage's spellcasting is a class ability.

Does antimagic field supress the True Polymorph? (Yes, he concentrated for an hour). This is a massive debate as there are 2 schools of thought.
1. The permanency only applies to not having to concentrate, and can still be dispelled.
2. It's permanent and cannot be dispelled, and thus, the antimagic field would not work.

If you are using the revised rules in the srd then certainly the answer is 1.

He made a Simulacrum of himself as a Bard, and the Simulacrum did the same thing. So, what would the antimagic field do to a Simulacrum, that has concentrated on True Polymorph for an hour, and is now an Archmage?

Simulacrum would be suppressed in the area of the AMF. "A creature or object summoned or created by magic temporarily winks out of existence in the sphere. Such a creature instantly reappears once the space the creature occupied is no longer within the sphere."

In the last sessiom, there were essentially 2 bards (same player, with a Simulacrum), which were both now Ancient Brass Dragons that changed into Archmages.

I wouldn't have allowed that. But anyway I won't play with simulacrum as written.

it's my 2nd time DMing our group.

DMing a high level encounter is a challenge, maybe start at low level and work up to it?

I mean, it's all about having fun, but it sounds like neither you nor they had fun.

 

[jgsugden]

Note that you don't need to focus on the archmage, specifically, in this situation. Any beast or humanoid with non-class limited abilities could see potential abuses here. For example, the 20th level wizard that true polymorphs into an ancient brass dragon might be able to cast unlimited plane shift spells by constantly reforming into a new Githyanki Knight, which explicitly has innate spellcasting (not from class) abilities.

Personally, I'd add a limit that the dragon can't benefit from the same ability more than once per long rest if I saw an abuse taking shape, but I would not bother making a rule until a real abuse manifested.