Hero into Dragon into Archmage rinse repeat

[seebs]

i would generally not grant abilities that were substantially spell-like from a new form.

 

[ro]

Precisely, the Level 20 caster, True Polymorphs onto an ancient brass, then uses Change Shape (which it retains in the new form), now has access to high level spells.

It sounds like people are united against allowing Archmage magic, calling it a class feature, even though the Archmage has no class. So, no new spells for the Change Shape dragon.

I now have the problem that we are resetting Saturdays game because the rules are all wonky.

The Bard wants to instead, be able to True Polymorph into only the Archmage instead of the dragon. They will all have a boon. Would the boon carry over to the new form?

No, because the only aspects that carry over through True Polymorph are personality and alignment.

Is the Archmage able to cast spells because his old form was a Bard?

The Archmage is able to cast spells not because his old form was a Bard but because True Polymorph does not put any such restrictions on the creature, and all that creature's abilities are real and available. The only things unchanged are alignment and personality.

Does antimagic field supress the True Polymorph? (Yes, he concentrated for an hour). This is a massive debate as there are 2 schools of thought.
1. The permanency only applies to not having to concentrate, and can still be dispelled.
2. It's permanent and cannot be dispelled, and thus, the antimagic field would not work.

Sage Advice says that "permanent" True Polymorph can be dispelled.

He made a Simulacrum of himself as a Bard, and the Simulacrum did the same thing. So, what would the antimagic field do to a Simulacrum, that has concentrated on True Polymorph for an hour, and is now an Archmage?

The Simulacrum would be toast the moment it entered the antimagic field, as would be anything it is concentrating on.

This is a combat session that will last all night. It's epic level (20+ boon).

I found it frustrating and difficult to run, and players weren't having fun.
"If you want to kill is, just do it..."
"These saves are rediculous...."
Etc... I want it to be hard, even to the point of last man standing.

In the last sessiom, there were essentially 2 bards (same player, with a Simulacrum), which were both now Ancient Brass Dragons that changed into Archmages.
1 Paladin with a Scarab of Protection
2 Barbarians
1 Life Cleric

That's a total of 18 legendary resists on the dragon's and paladin. Makes for a long night. It went into over time.
The complaints and gripes, combined with mental fatigue at the end of the night was too much, and I said "just forget it, if you want it easy, then we can just stop...I'm done".
This is a group we have played with for at least 20 years. All friends.
I'm just not very good at the mechanics, rules and apparently, being a DM.
it's my 2nd time DMing our group.

Just trying to get some rulings that make sense.
Sorry for being long winded.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[pukunui]

For real? Even if it's in the Monster Manual? And used to attack the heroes?

Yes. There's a reason the archmage appears in the "Nonplayer Character" appendix and not the main section of the MM. Think of it as being more of a template than a creature. It doesn't even have a specific race assigned to it [the statblock reads "humanoid (any race)"].

I'll just point out that the new Xanathar's Guide begins with a handy one-page summary of the game's main rules. One of the first things it says is this: "One rule overrides all others: the DM is the final authority on how the rules work in play."

In other words, if you don't want to allow this rules exploit, then all you have to do is say no. You don't need an official ruling from Crawford to back you up.

The dragon's Change Shape ability, which it apparently keeps in its new form....

If it didn't keep that ability in its new form, it wouldn't be able to change back into a dragon.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It sounds like people are united against allowing Archmage magic, calling it a class feature, even though the Archmage has no class.

It has a class, for some intents and purposes. This is one of them, we're pretty sure.

Although I will take the opportunity to point out that this confusion would not have occurred under a 3E ruleset, since that edition was much more clear about these sorts of things.

 

[Oofta]

It sounds like people are united against allowing Archmage magic, calling it a class feature, even though the Archmage has no class. So, no new spells for the Change Shape dragon.

The Archmage is an NPC. Specifically from the MM:

This appendix contains statistics for various humanoid nonplayer characters (NPCs) that adventurers might
encounter during a D&D campaign, including lowly commoners and mighty archmages. These stat blocks can be used to represent both human and nonhuman NPCs.

The only reason an archmage has spells is because it's a a humanoid that happens to be an 18th-level spellcaster.

If you want to rule differently for your game feel free.

 

[Sadras]

Apologies, was referring to the True Polymorph spell

It makes no difference - also note the True Polymoph spell uses the term new form.
As others have explained it to you multiple times in this thread, archmage is a class (specifically non-player class) not a creature, by confusing the two you will open up your game to all sorts of abuse and make it much harder on yourself as DM (high level is challenging enough already).

Let us say you have already incorrectly allowed it -given that the archmage's spell list are not supernatural powers, he/she would need to study/memorise them first. He/she doesn't gain them automatically upon transformation.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Okay, here's the official rule from the introductory section of the Monster Manual (or the DM's Basic Rules):

"SPELLCASTING
A monster with the Spellcasting class feature has a spellcaster level and spell slots, which it uses to cast its spells of 1st level and higher (as explained in the player's D&D basic rules and the Player's Handbook)..."

So you cannot use the Spellcasting trait from any statblock, because all of the shapechanging options in the game (as far as I'm aware of) specifically prohibit you from using class features.

You can use the Innate Spellcasting feature unless something else tells you you can't, however.

Interestingly, the Spellcasting trait is the only one called out as a class feature in monster statblocks. One might assume that something like Sneak Attack on the assassin would count as a class feature too...but that becomes problematic. For example, that would mean that a creature could polymorph into a CR 6 Hobgoblin Warlord and get 4d6 Martial Advantage, but not into a CR 5 Master Thief and get 4d6 Sneak Attack.

There are other examples. The major problem is that the NPC statblocks in the appendices are not substantially different than the NPC statblocks included as parts of monster entries (such as Hobgoblins and Drow). So if you take "has the same name as a class ability" as the standard, you end up with really arbitrary and inconsistent restrictions that drive you to transform into hobgoblins and drow instead of half-orcs and high elves, because the former have monster entries and special abilities that you can use and the latter don't.

I stick with the most conservative restriction to avoid that problem. Anything in a monster statblock (including the NPC statblocks in the appendices) is by definition a monster ability, not a class ability, unless something says otherwise. The only one that fits that bill is Spellcasting, which has been explicitly defined as a class feature.

As an alternative, you might note that the Spellcasting class feature lists a class and level in its description. You could use the same rules for other features: if the statblock says that it uses the feature as a character of a certain class and level, then it you could count it as a class feature. Off the top of my head, I can't recall any features that do that other than Spellcasting, but I may be missing something in the Volo's Appendix.

Honestly, I think that's probably how the designers intended it. They didn't care if a dragon turned into a hobgoblin or an assassin, but they didn't want monsters picking up spellcasting with the Change Shape feature. They phrased it as "class ability" and defined Spellcasting as being such, in order to be clear that it applied to Spellcasting, while leaving space for adding other class abilities to monsters in the future by calling them out as such--future compatibility with Change Shape.

 

[Zmajdusa]

Yeah, the spellcasting trait is definitely a no go for change shape. However an Ancient Gold Dragon could change into enough things with innate spellcasting to cover a great deal of spells. That makes the metallic Ancient Dragons far more versatile, and it is another reason why Ancient Chromatics CR shouldn't be as high as the Ancient Metallics. Ancient Gold has access to a plethora of spells and abilities, while the Ancient Red just has his tears of jealousy because he never got change shape.

 

[ro]

Okay, here's the official rule from the introductory section of the Monster Manual (or the DM's Basic Rules):

"SPELLCASTING
A monster with the Spellcasting class feature has a spellcaster level and spell slots, which it uses to cast its spells of 1st level and higher (as explained in the player's D&D basic rules and the Player's Handbook)..."

So you cannot use the Spellcasting trait from any statblock, because all of the shapechanging options in the game (as far as I'm aware of) specifically prohibit you from using class features.

Thank you for this information! To add to it, True Polymorph is one case where you can cast spells:

The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions.​

The Archmage is an NPC. Specifically from the MM:

This appendix contains statistics for various humanoid nonplayer characters (NPCs) that adventurers might
encounter during a D&D campaign, including lowly commoners and mighty archmages. These stat blocks can be used to represent both human and nonhuman NPCs.

The only reason an archmage has spells is because it's a a humanoid that happens to be an 18th-level spellcaster.

If you want to rule differently for your game feel free.

I understand better now that Spellcasting for monsters counts as a class feature, even while it raises other questions about other monster features. Just to clarify, an NPC can still be considered a monster, and without question those in the appendix are "creatures", targetable by the many spells that allow you to target a creature of your choice.

For example, you wouldn't be able to cast Cure Wounds on an NPC if it weren't a creature, nor by your logic yourself or your PC allies.

@Balfore, the exploit could work almost as well without the dragon and Change Shape.
A Level 17 Bard can True Polymorph into a Level 17 Bard who True Polymorphs into another Bard, etc. for eternity, all made permanent by waiting an hour. If you rule that it is not "another kind of creature", he could pick a different race each time. He would effectively have infinite HP and infinite spell slots.

 

[Oofta]

For example, you wouldn't be able to cast Cure Wounds on an NPC if it weren't a creature, nor by your logic yourself or your PC allies.

Nobody is saying that an archmage is not a creature. It is. It's base creature is human, elf, or whatever humanoid the archmage happens to be. Just like PCs are creatures. They are simply creatures with class levels that give them additional abilities beyond that of their base stats.

You can't transform into a 18th level mage, you can transform into a human. Spend enough time and effort and someday you could gain enough class levels to gain the abilities of an archmage, but your creature type is still human. If you don't want to accept that, it's fine, it's your game.