"He's beyond my healing ability..."

[Vyvyan Basterd]

[t]he dm has a reasonable expectation of being allowed to create what he thinks is a good story (even with cliches) without the players inisisting that he must conform to the rules.

qft

 

[Umbran]

So, you enjoy letting the rules dictate the story?

Sometimes. I had an entire set of encounters go to heck in a handbasket on me last night because one NPC "went bust" on three out of five rolls. The rules quite clearly dictated to me what was going to happen in this situation - my guys rolled poorly, so the PCs won.

The deathbed delivery is very in-genre for my Deadlands game, but the party has a quite potent healer who could, in many instances, save someone from the brink of death. The player would not mind, however, if I sometimes ruled she automatically failed. I asked, prior to campaign start, if the players minded if I drive a GM Fiat now and again.

And that, in the end, seems to be the real issue here - do your players need to have things go exactly by the book at all times, or not? Find out before you start, and run your game accordingly.

 

[Nagol]

To which all of my players over the past 28 years would reply: "Great! Can we get on with the game now?" It'd be win-win.

Hey you (the DM) already picked up your ball to go home. I'm just suggsting there's no need to reconvene. My players from the past 30+ years would probably agree. [/puts away "rod of camparison"]

So, you enjoy letting the rules dictate the story? To each their own style, of course.

I'm a big advocate for using the tool suited to the job at hand. Just like I don't hammer screws into a wall, I pick a RPG system that supports the genre I wish to explore. Then I design situations that the system supports well -- why fight the game if the game was chosen purposefully? It is likely that if I'm fighting the game system, I am fighting the tropes and expectations of the genre (or the game was a poor choice as it doesn't cover the chosen genre well but that's what house ruling is for).

 

[Barastrondo]

Clearly what is needed is to kick seven kinds of holy hell out of the PCs before they find the dying NPC, so that nobody has so much as a curative cantrip left on their persons. An NPC who hangs on to his last shred of life around well-rested PCs has only himself to blame.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This attitude I don't understand.

Why shouldn't the players just tell the DM to "get over himself". It is a game.

Saying that "it's drama" is so meaningless as to be a non-statement. If the players heal the dying NPC, that's also drama. Saving the life of a dying NPC at the last moment is also a dramatic trope. Why does the DM get to sole authority to decide which trope will be used and when? Who is really the one "full of themselves" at this point? Is it really the PC who says, "I cast cure light wounds?" or the DM who says, "No, you can't do that because it would derail my story?" Who is really acting like a jerk here, the guy who says, "I cast cure moderate wounds to save the NPC's life", or the guy who says, "Well, if you do that you can all just go home, because I refuse to play any more."

As DM... most of the time I allow PCs to do whatever they want. If an NPC is dying and they roll Heal checks or use Healing Words to save him, then that's cool. I go along with what they want 99 times out of 100, as that is what drives the drama of the game.

If, however, one player bitches because that 1 remaining time I use DM fiat to say that the NPCs wounds are beyond healing, or I set a Heal checks DC so high as to be almost impossible... then that's what I tell him to get over himself. Go along with the story and stop trying to "win" (which is what I'd consider someone who argued with me over this one point this one time.) The rules exist because the game requires it. The story, however, does not.

 

[Janx]

I'm a big advocate for using the tool suited to the job at hand. Just like I don't hammer screws into a wall, I pick a RPG system that supports the genre I wish to explore. Then I design situations that the system supports well -- why fight the game if the game was chosen purposefully? It is likely that if I'm fighting the game system, I am fighting the tropes and expectations of the genre (or the game was a poor choice as it doesn't cover the chosen genre well but that's what house ruling is for).

while 75% of the users here might be willing play something other than D&D because of better rules. 75% of all the D&D players don't want to play another ruleset. And they still want what they want out of D&D.

And yes, my stats are made up. but the point is still true.


Perhaps the real point of the "last words" situation is that it is a cliche that isn't supposed to be used all the time, and isn't supposed to work all the time. At low level, you get to use it a couple to its planned effect. at higher level, when the situation arises again, the PCs get to revel in the fact that they are not powerless to save this man.

 

[prosfilaes]

Go along with the story and stop trying to "win" (which is what I'd consider someone who argued with me over this one point this one time.)

It's not about winning. It's about getting to use my powers. If I wanted to go along with the story, I'd go rent a movie or read a book. I want to write the story. If I can't do anything, fine, but if I can, I don't want to be stopped because of the story.

 

[Piratecat]

In Harlond, one of my main nations, if you are killed and resurrected you are legally considered to be a different person. If you possessions and titles are transfered to your heirs (or lacking heirs, the state!), you can't claim them back nor are you considered to have title to them. In fact, the only things considered to be yours is the stuff that was buried with you. So make sure you are buried with a purse.

Yoink! Consider this stolen. What a great, flavorful idea.

 

[Umbran]

at higher level, when the situation arises again, the PCs get to revel in the fact that they are not powerless to save this man.

Well, at not very higher level, the GM doesn't have to use the trick of keeping the guy alive "just long enough". The guy can just die, and the PCs can use Speak With Dead if they want information from him.

 

[Nagol]

while 75% of the users here might be willing play something other than D&D because of better rules. 75% of all the D&D players don't want to play another ruleset. And they still want what they want out of D&D.

And yes, my stats are made up. but the point is still true.


Perhaps the real point of the "last words" situation is that it is a cliche that isn't supposed to be used all the time, and isn't supposed to work all the time. At low level, you get to use it a couple to its planned effect. at higher level, when the situation arises again, the PCs get to revel in the fact that they are not powerless to save this man.

I've heard about that reluctance before. I admit I may be incredibly liucky in regard to introducing new game systems and finding players who are happy playing regardless of the systems on offer. We started playing other game systems almost immediately after finding D&D (Holmes edition) before the big 3 AD&D books were published. We haven't stopped picking up new games as new systems that seem to match our genre preferences show up.

When I'm designing a scenario, I'll include things that may lead to a cliche as supported by the ruleset in play. That ruleset serves as a common understanding and expectation between the players and DM and I don't deviate from it impetuously. So there may be a NPC in dire straits that tries to issue a warning to the PCs as the ruleset allows (i.e. in 3.5 poison or disease work well -- grevious wounds do not since D&D expects a buffer of unconsciousness between active character and dead).

When I'm adjudicsting the game I won't enforce the cliche if the players reasonably work around it using tools in their repertoire. If the NPC is in dire straits and the PCs won't/can't immediately use healing magic on the NPC they'll be last words. If they do manage to help him, the scenario doesn't fall apart -- the focus shifts away from investigation towards resolution. The players feel empowered as their agency drives the change in the situaiton closer to the situations they desire to experience.