D&D 5E Hey All, Is This Encounter A Reasonable One?

[TheProdigalson1965]

In my experience, when duergar get the drop on PCs (as they often will with invisibility), the results can swing wildly, with that opening salvo wreaking havoc. If they’re fresh, it might not be too much of a problem, but if they’ve already depleted some resources, it could go very pear-shaped. In that case, you could always have the duergar fight to subdue, as they are renown slavers.

Personally, I’d feel really grumpy about a player limiting what I can and can’t do as a DM. I love interesting terrain that both sides in a conflict can take advantage of. But then again, who am I to talk? I have a player that really hates character death, so I scaled back my difficulty accordingly.

Thanks for the response. TBH, I wasn't going to use the invisibility because of the potential to so swing the battle, but I was intending to use the "enlarge" ability. The real reason I am using them is the environment and the source of what they are looking to retrieve is a series of precious gems, so it just made sense to me.

 

[TheProdigalson1965]

It would be the 2nd of 2, the first was going to be an "easy" difficulty with the story hook of an escaping duergar to go warn the rest of the defense force, thus the 2nd encounter

 

[TheProdigalson1965]

Welcome to ENWorld



Let me say, frankly, screw that. DMs "shake things up" all the time; it's practically part of the job description. Nothing malicious about it. Players want a fun challenge, and you want to give them one.

It's great if your player likes to plan for encounters. But D&D is not a MMO. If he throws a fit, you may need to remind him of that. You are the DM, after all. The great thing about D&D is its ability to accommodate wild ideas on both sides of the DM screen in real-time with human creativity.

Being sportsmanlike does not mean you need to be predictable.



Why do you think that is? I'm not being facetious. What do you observe at the table that you think leads to them stomping over "hard" encounters?

For example, is it because you're only running 1-2 fights per day so the PCs can expend most of their resources in just 1-2 fights? If that's the case - for example, in an Out of the Abyss style Underdark exploration - you might consider changing how long rests work in your game.



Your party seems geared for fighting. Also, I notice you seem to use "encounters" to be synonymous with "fights." That leads me to make some assumptions about your style of game... However, I'm still going to offer this advice:

Give them fun stuff to explore! Interesting NPCs to dialogue with! Ethical dilemmas to face! Provide encounters where combat is clearly not the best option. Change things up.

Also: Your party is conspicuously missing a rogue or a utility-based wizard who would do things like disarm traps, unlock doors, scout ahead, etc. Just saying.



Flank your enemy in a passageway. Cast spells to prepare. Box them in.

It's a sound tactical approach...if the duergar indeed know about the PCs and have time to cast buff spells in advance...if the duergar win initiative (or get surprise) and manage to lay down their silence spell in time...if the PCs don't become aware of the duergar and organize their own counter-ambush...if the PCs don't have a way to burrow through stone...if the front-line PCs don't push back the duergar...if...if...if...

The problem I see is that it doesn't make for a terribly interesting encounter.

There's precious few interesting choices for the PCs to make.
The "Search and Destroy" duergar party isn't anywhere near overwhelming enough to inspire suspense/dread.
There's no creative gimmick which leaps off the page and would make me as a player go "wow! that's cool!"
There's no investment for me as a player beyond the rote "survive, kill all monsters, maybe take a hostage to interrogate."

If you want further suggestions – it's very possible you don't and are content with this scenario – feel free to ask.

Hey thanks for the awesome tips!!! I do have encounters that aren't only combat. The story hook has alot of investigation, some negotiation, and skill checks that take into effect what the specific ability score influences (cha etc) As to the party makeup, yeah I allow the party to choose what they want to play, but the 5 people involved, tend to "stay in their lanes" and aren't usually willing to try something new because they tend to not be as engaged if they are out of their element. (2 specifically if they aren't doing a lot of damage, they tend to mentally wander) So, yeah the suggestions of being more utilitarian and not so esoteric and redundant is another challenge

There's precious few interesting choices for the PCs to make.
The "Search and Destroy" duergar party isn't anywhere near overwhelming enough to inspire suspense/dread.
There's no creative gimmick which leaps off the page and would make me as a player go "wow! that's cool!"
There's no investment for me as a player beyond the rote "survive, kill all monsters, maybe take a hostage to interrogate."

If you want further suggestions – it's very possible you don't and are content with this scenario – feel free to ask.

The purpose in my ind isn't the "interesting challenge" here. They are in a mine to recover a rare and precious mineral so they can have an item created. This encounter is the guards who are alerted to intruders. So the goal is the mineral. But I am always interested in other ideas and ways to spice up the experience so if you have the time and the inclination I am all ears. Thanks for the help

 

[TheProdigalson1965]

What purpose does the encounter serve, in the context of the adventure as a whole? What are the duergar hoping to achieve?

Are they trying to slow the party down, or to weaken them, or to scare them away, or to take prisoners, or to get themselves pointlessly killed, or ... what?

hey there, thanks for the response. The purpose is to give the party a challenge that is not the norm for them (surprise and the use of battlefield control magic) and nothing mor ereally then to show some resistance to them getting the minerals that the mine is yielding

 

[Cyrinishad]

My players obligate me to "shake things up" in their encounters... They'd be disappointed if everything was run straight out of the Monster Manual. Mixing it up is how you create memorable encounters, and keeps the players from getting bored. It makes the world feel like one where there is always something new to discover...

Keep up the good work!

 

[Flamestrike]

If a player told me he liked straight from the book encounters, with no terrain or other difficulties, and to know in advance what they were....

Lets just sat my reaction would be very different from yours.

 

[BoldItalic]

hey there, thanks for the response. The purpose is to give the party a challenge that is not the norm for them (surprise and the use of battlefield control magic) and nothing mor ereally then to show some resistance to them getting the minerals that the mine is yielding

Okay, thanks for clarifying. That simplifies things.

Decide how many rounds you want the combat to last before all the duergar are killed. Enough so that the players feel like it's been a good fight, but not so long that they start to get bored with it. You know your players, so decide on that basis. Then give the duergar enough hit points and enough healing to last that long, assuming the PCs deal out damage the way the normally do (again, based on your knowledge of the players). We can't really do those calculations for you, so we can't judge how tough is tough enough in terms of CRs and HD and so on, but you can.

Now do the same thing the other way around. How much damage do you think you should inflict on the PCs? Decide that, and give the duergar the ability to inflict that much damage in the number of rounds you have decided above.

Of course, it won't be that simple but it will give you a rough feel for how balanced the encounter is, as a straight fight.

Now introduce the tactics. The two duergar that arrive from behind to seal the trap - you can hasten or delay their arrival depending on how the encounter is panning out. If the shield wall is crumbling fast, they can arrive early as reinforcements. If the shield wall is holding, they can wait back. You don't have to spring the trap immediately. You could make a rule such as - they arrive one round after the first duergar is killed, or the round after that, or ... you get the idea. But you can adjust it on the fly according to how the players handle the encounter initially. The duergar would have though about that, so you should think about that, because you are the duergar.

Now terrain. Give the duergar places to take cover. Columns holding up the roof, statues, fallen rubble, doorways and whatnot. Let the players imagine that there might be more duergar hiding behind them, than maybe there actually are. A stairway up to a gallery where there might be more duergar will keep the players guessing without increasing the numerical difficulty of the encounter in terms of hit dice and so on. Will there be archers up in the gallery, or spell-casters, enfilading them? Do they need to fight their way up there to clear it? Or is it just a blind? They don't know

Do your players make clever use of cover themselves? If so, put the cover in the middle of the room so that the duergar can initially get behind it but the players can't use it so well because they are being attacked from the rear.

There's a lot you can do to make a combat encounter interesting, without needing to make the monsters tougher.

Good luck, anyway

 

[TheProdigalson1965]

these are all fantastic hints, thanks so much everyone I am learning and enjoying this alot

 

[Harzel]

hey there, thanks for the response. The purpose is to give the party a challenge that is not the norm for them (surprise and the use of battlefield control magic) and nothing mor ereally then to show some resistance to them getting the minerals that the mine is yielding

I'm not saying you are "doing it wrong", but IMO, D&D is always the better if the NPC's (at least intelligent ones) have at least a minimal/sketchy story of their own. Answering "why are the duergar here and what were they up to before being rudely interrupted by the PCs" can prepare you to make the encounter interesting in ways beyond combat tactics.

• Will these duergar fight to the death? They are intelligent, after all, and likely have some sense of self-preservation. If they retreat, where would they go? If captured, what would they say?
• If the PCs do defeat these duergar, will they have the mine to themselves indefinitely, or will there be more duergar showing up eventually?
• Will other duergar find out about the slaughter of their comrades and if so will they just accept it or will they be trying to find the culprits?
• If the PCs leave the mine and then come back later, what will they find?

Just a few things to ponder if you wish to.

 

[TheProdigalson1965]

I'm not saying you are "doing it wrong", but IMO, D&D is always the better if the NPC's (at least intelligent ones) have at least a minimal/sketchy story of their own. Answering "why are the duergar here and what were they up to before being rudely interrupted by the PCs" can prepare you to make the encounter interesting in ways beyond combat tactics.

• Will these duergar fight to the death? They are intelligent, after all, and likely have some sense of self-preservation. If they retreat, where would they go? If captured, what would they say?
• If the PCs do defeat these duergar, will they have the mine to themselves indefinitely, or will there be more duergar showing up eventually?
• Will other duergar find out about the slaughter of their comrades and if so will they just accept it or will they be trying to find the culprits?
• If the PCs leave the mine and then come back later, what will they find?

Just a few things to ponder if you wish to.

Thanks for the response. The duergar are in a mountain range in Acheron. That is an eternal battlefield in the outer planes. So the idea I had was that they are used to incursions from aggressive types, as Gruumish and the Orcs are there, and of course, they hate dwarves. So the idea that they would be protecting their domain but not looking to venture out and get retribution was my train of thought.

The party will have some time to accomplish their task, but not an extended time. Prolly 15-20 minutes before another patrol comes. But they shouldn't need that long tbh unless they really dawdle, and I realize they might.
If they leave the mine and come back, then they'll have to go through the whole thing again, as the dwarves will re-establish the mining activity, and then possibly run into another scouting patrol.