Hey its a new poll! Do you allow monks in your campaign?

[BronzeDragon]

Your words speak for themselves.

Okay, now you got yourself confused.

The term "crucified' was used in a non-specific way. I didn't mean crucifiction per se, but death in any of many ways.

I do NOT play in the european middle-ages. I DM in a world loosely based upon it.

As I said before, I do not make my players suffer through an inquisition, though certainly there are some people who would like to burn wizards at the stake.

And BTW, a paladin who laid his hands on someone and instantly healed him would be considered a saint, perhaps a prophet, since only a few possessed the healing touch in the history of christendom.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

But you are forgetting that people who "knew" God better in the european middle-ages DID gain personal power. With knowledge (which usually translated itself into the writing of books), the secular power of a priest or monk grew. They could become cardinals, bishops and pope after all.

My point is that this was not the institutional desire of these people. The desire to know God and the universe was what drove these men.

I don't see that as being antithetical to the D&D polytheistic system. In fact, the many "heresies' of the late middle-ages were mainly new (or old) interpretations of what God exactly was. Of course this can't be compared to a true polytheistic system like the Greek or Egyptian. But it still drives the point home, that secular power was not the main desire of the priesthood.

And most D&D religions consider their god to be the main one anyway, with the others being protrayed as either servants or enemies.

Nope. You have completely changed the subject. We were talking about personally power to do great things. Not political power. A high level cleric or monk in D&D can gain all of that political power as well. But they also gain magical powers that have non analog in the real world. That is the point.

If you do not see a difference between the vast polythiesm of standard D&D, where multiple gods are fully acknowledged as existing, even if they are the enemy, and the one true church polticial realities of europe, then you need to think about it some more. It does drive home the point that secular power was not the main desire of the priesthood in the real world. Correct. And this point leads directly to the point that D&D religon is entirely different than middle ages Europe religion. Look at the cleric table in the PH. Clearly gaining levels in cleric is all about gaining more secular power.

I do not see anywhere that clerics of one Lawful Good god must see their god as being over other LG (or even simply G) gods. And even if they do, it would clearly be absolute apples and oranges when compared to the attitudes of the Christian church(es) against the heretics.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

No, I would say: "Monks do not exist in this world. Please make another character choice."

Earlier you said that monks did exist. They just lived in monistaries.

Later you said that you allow individual role-players complete freedom of interpretation.

I want to play a guy from one of the orders that do exist in your world. But I see him as a guy who wants to learn about god by experiencing the world and doing as much good as he can.

Do you allow me to have complete freedom of interpretation or do you say "No, monks must behave like X."

 

[BronzeDragon]

Earlier you said that monks did exist. They just lived in monistaries.

Later you said that you allow individual role-players complete freedom of interpretation.

I want to play a guy from one of the orders that do exist in your world. But I see him as a guy who wants to learn about god by experiencing the world and doing as much good as he can.

Do you allow me to have complete freedom of interpretation or do you say "No, monks must behave like X."

Uh, you got yourself confused again.

When I said monks did exist in my world (as a cloistered bunch of guys), NOWHERE did I say they where like the eastern monks, just cloistered.

They are priests. And I believe the Cleric character class perfectly describes one of these monks that decides to know his god better and spread the word by adventuring.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Okay, now you got yourself confused.

The term "crucified' was used in a non-specific way. I didn't mean crucifiction per se, but death in any of many ways.

Sorry, when you use a specific word in a non-specific way, it is you that gets me confused.

I do NOT play in the european middle-ages. I DM in a world loosely based upon it.

As I said before, I do not make my players suffer through an inquisition, though certainly there are some people who would like to burn wizards at the stake.

Are you saying that you retract your quote about an eastern monk if he did end up in your world? Wy would a monk be killed in a non-specific manner, but not a wizard.

And BTW, a paladin who laid his hands on someone and instantly healed him would be considered a saint, perhaps a prophet, since only a few possessed the healing touch in the history of christendom.

Not if you use even a loosely modeled european setting. Remeber, as you stated, "No open minds."

In the real world, people could be, and were, killed for the slightest suspision of supernatural association.

 

[BronzeDragon]

Clearly gaining levels in cleric is all about gaining more secular power.

Have to disagree again. Gaining levels is a measure of personal power and connection to your God, not secular power.

A D&D cleric can be level 20 and still be a wanderer.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Uh, you got yourself confused again.

When I said monks did exist in my world (as a cloistered bunch of guys), NOWHERE did I say they where like the eastern monks, just cloistered.

They are priests. And I believe the Cleric character class perfectly describes one of these monks that decides to know his god better and spread the word by adventuring.

Nope, you are still confusing me by contradicting yourself.

First you said monks are only cloistered.

Then I said, you are forcing groups to behave in a certain way.

Then you said, no I allow freedom of interpretatation.

So I said I want to intepret a monk this way.

So you said: No, there are no monks.

Now you are back to saying that there are in fact monks, but they must be cloistered. Which was my initial point that you denied.

 

[BronzeDragon]

Not if you use even a loosely modeled european setting. Remeber, as you stated, "No open minds."

In the real world, people could be, and were, killed for the slightest suspision of supernatural association.

Only if the supernatural association was with the devil. If the association was with God (as healing would be considered), the person would probably be proclaimed a saint.

Otherwise, how could people understand the curing of people by Christ as something good.

And no, I do not retract my quote because there are, again, NO monks as described in the PHB in my campaign world. There is NO chance one of them would stumble upon one of the cities of my world.

The open-mindedness of the "modern" western world is certainly not present in my campaign. People don't just accept anything that comes their way. That doesn't mean they don't change, but change takes a great deal of time and effort.

And again, eastern monks just don't exist, so there is no chance such a thing would create a philosophical debate at one of the cities in my campaign world.

And I promise I won't ever use specific terms again. Sorry for the confusion I caused.

 

[BronzeDragon]

Nope, you are still confusing me by contradicting yourself.

First you said monks are only cloistered.

Then I said, you are forcing groups to behave in a certain way.

Then you said, no I allow freedom of interpretatation.

So I said I want to intepret a monk this way.

So you said: No, there are no monks.

Now you are back to saying that there are in fact monks, but they must be cloistered. Which was my initial point that you denied.

OMG! Let me clear things out definitely:

1 - There ARE monks in my campaign world.

2 - They ARE cloistered.

3 - They are NOT the monk class as specified in the PHB.

4 - They are better described as the Cleric class.

5 - They USUALLY don't go out adventuring.

So, what I was saying is that my monks are not the PHB monks. They don't fight with bare hands (indeed, most don't fight at all), they don't have the ideal of self-perfection at their hearts, so on, so forth.

 

[BronzeDragon]

Also, when I said "there are no monks in this world", I also said "make another character choice".

This to mean that what doesn't exist in my world is the Monk CLASS.