D&D 5E High level characters: A one off

[Jester David]

The party you ran was not very well optimised. I've used a lot of the same monsters you have used against a well optimised spell caster heavy party (Paladin, Wizard, Lore Bard, Cleric) and they have completely cake walked the same monsters at level 12.

Optimized parties will always break an edition. They're not a good baseline.

 

[Zardnaar]

Optimized parties will always break an edition. They're not a good baseline.

You do not have to be that optimised to break 5E at higher level. Daves party is very optimised around making saving throws and casting spells. Having 3+ spell casters in the party is a basic way of breaking 5E and he has some of the most powerful subclasses in the game as well. IIRC his group is a light cleric, lore bard, Paladin and Abjurer wizard.

I actually wish some of my players could optimise a little bit across the whole party instead of having 1-2 good PCs and 2-3 numpties. And by numpties I mean Rogues who can't sneak attack, fighters only dealing 1d8+3 damage things like that, melee clerics with 13 strength.

 

[Jester David]

You do not have to be that optimised to break 5E at higher level. Daves party is very optimised around making saving throws and casting spells. Having 3+ spell casters in the party is a basic way of breaking 5E and he has some of the most powerful subclasses in the game as well. IIRC his group is a light cleric, lore bard, Paladin and Abjurer wizard.

I actually wish some of my players could optimise a little bit across the whole party instead of having 1-2 good PCs and 2-3 numpties. And by numpties I mean Rogues who can't sneak attack, fighters only dealing 1d8+3 damage things like that, melee clerics with 13 strength.

It was equally easy to break 3e and 4e. Having two leaders in a party could really mess with combat difficulty.
Thankfully, 5e is a little more forgiving in terms of balance. It's not quite as rigid and there are more ways to work around a stronger PC or buff a weak PC.

 

[SilverfireSage]

You do not have to be that optimised to break 5E at higher level.

I would think my post would be good evidence to the contrary of this point. Even with a couple characters being basically cheats (too powerful magic items, a character with permanent fly) I was still able to give them a challenge.

 

[eryndel]

I think one of the important points to get out of this (at least one of the ones I gleaned from it), is that at high levels, it's pretty straightforward to add complications (monsters, tricks, traps, etc) to tailor encounters to the right challenge for your party's composition. Even ignoring the merits and flaws around the encounter CR discussion (saved for another thread), the play reports seems to indicate the remarkable agility of the system in crafting challenging encounters, especially with the ability to use most of the creatures from the MM over a wide range of levels and party compositions.

Great read, thanks!

 

[Rhenny]

... the play reports seems to indicate the remarkable agility of the system in crafting challenging encounters, especially with the ability to use most of the creatures from the MM over a wide range of levels and party compositions.

Great read, thanks!

Agility is a great word for it. Because the system is simpler and transparent, it does make changes on the fly easier.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hmmm. I find it interesting that the monsters you name were able to do so much damage to the party. How sophisticated were their tactics? Was the drow fighter, for example, using his extended-range darkvision to gain advantage to attack enemy creatures? (From 60' to 120' range, he can see them and most of them can't see him, since 60' darkvision is the usual standard.) When two fighters got frightened by the dragon, was everyone able to fall back effectively until the fear wore off (thus nullifying it)? What kind of countermeasures were employed when the drow wizard started hitting them with Cloudkill/Lightning Bolts? Was there any attempt to either Counterspell or fall back out of range?

From the description, I'm pretty sure I could take the exact same characters that went through your adventure and shred the opposition by doing nothing more than swapping up the wizard's prepared spells a little.

The lesson I'm learning about 5E is that tactical skill on the part of the PCs/players is a massive force multiplier. "Optimization" is now a game-time activity, not a chargen-time activity. I think that's pretty cool, but I point this out only because you may in time have to massively increase the difficulty of encounters as your players gain more skill.

 

[Riley37]

The lesson I'm learning about 5E is that tactical skill on the part of the PCs/players is a massive force multiplier. "Optimization" is now a game-time activity, not a chargen-time activity.

Yes. I for one welcome this; I want my PC's *moral* choices to influence what kind of story emerges, and I also want my and my PC's *tactical and strategic* choices to matter *at least* as much as levels and class abilities and magic items and so forth. I prefer 5E as I've played it so far, to the kind of D&D in which all your interesting decisions *end* when you're done tinkering with the build, and from there on, you're just running it out like Conway's Game of Life. (I could raise comparisons to Magic: The Gathering, but I don't know MtG well enough to compare choices during deck-building, to choices while playing out a match.)

I don't think that actually rules out optimization in char-gen and in party composition. There are certain race/background/class/archetype combinations which work better than others. I'm fine with that; my group uses optimization when it's fun, and not when it isn't fun. We're not all about a series of finely-matched encounters, dialing the challenge level to exactly the setting for most XP without TPK.

I want the kind of story in which an inexperienced, untrained halfling, with a well-timed backstab, can turn the tables in a showdown between a warrior and a death knight. If you know what I mean. So far, it seems that 5E is compatible with that kind of story.

 

[DaveDash]

Hmmm. I find it interesting that the monsters you name were able to do so much damage to the party. How sophisticated were their tactics? Was the drow fighter, for example, using his extended-range darkvision to gain advantage to attack enemy creatures? (From 60' to 120' range, he can see them and most of them can't see him, since 60' darkvision is the usual standard.) When two fighters got frightened by the dragon, was everyone able to fall back effectively until the fear wore off (thus nullifying it)? What kind of countermeasures were employed when the drow wizard started hitting them with Cloudkill/Lightning Bolts? Was there any attempt to either Counterspell or fall back out of range?

From the description, I'm pretty sure I could take the exact same characters that went through your adventure and shred the opposition by doing nothing more than swapping up the wizard's prepared spells a little.

The lesson I'm learning about 5E is that tactical skill on the part of the PCs/players is a massive force multiplier. "Optimization" is now a game-time activity, not a chargen-time activity. I think that's pretty cool, but I point this out only because you may in time have to massively increase the difficulty of encounters as your players gain more skill.

What I am realising is that years of CRPG/strategy/tactical war gaming has honed my skills and expectations to be what is far above the baseline of what D&D 5e is designed for. This is true for my friends who are also in my group, and I suspect you are also on that level.
I look back at older editions and ponder why I didn't have the same 'difficulty' (as in, too easy) problem that I find in 5e. There are reasons for it built into the system, but it's also the fact we're a hell of a lot more experienced gamers now than then.
5e is also a simpler system to 'game' than some of its previous counterparts. I'd never consider myself an 'optimizer' or powergamer in 3rd edition, or anywhere close to that, but in 5e it's much easier to end up at that level. As Zard pointed out above, the group that I DM for picked some very "optimal" classes and subclasses, but not really out of a desire to powergame, but rather min/max and still play the classes they enjoy the most. That this is considered "optimizing" now is telling of the system.

What made me realise this is I have been watching a few YouTube games of 5e. In one of these games the DM is unable to challenge the players, and the players are also clearly computer gamers/wargamers, based upon their strict following of RAW, and comments about various games on the market. They blow through LMoP with ease, even though the DM has ramped up a lot of encounters, and they've structured their party in an optimal manner, and make good use of gaining advantage/positioning/sneak attacks/etc.
Other games on youtube though really struggle with LMoP, they make very un-optimal tactical decisions, pick sub par spells, cast the wrong spells at the wrong time, and such. These guys still have a blast playing the game, but the game baseline level is really designed for that kind of player, not you or me.

I do agree though, and have pointed out in earlier posts in this thread, that SilverFireSage may have a very different experience as his main group players naturally progress to higher levels, and obtain the experience (real life experience that is). But this also really comes down to what kind of group he has, some groups (and perhaps even most groups) just don't care to "game" the game as much as perhaps you or I.

The solution for me at present seems to be to ramp up numbers of lower CR monsters, and hit points on solos, which is quite easy to do. 5e is very forgiving it seems in some respects, you can ramp up the numbers of lower CR creatures and increase the challenge without stepping into TPK territory too quickly. Even large numbers of low CR monsters may not directly threaten high level party members, but they sure chew up resources they didn't want to spend.

There are some gotcha's though, some extremely potent and deadly lower CR monsters: Fire Giants, hell hounds (used in numbers), NPC assassin, Glabrezu (Power word stun on a CR9 and darkness spam), Flame Skulls. Others as written are total duds, such as the Drow Wizard, which has far too low hitpoints for its CR (it actually has a defensive CR of about 2) and can be focus fired down in one round (or turn at higher levels).

 

[DaveDash]

Here is a high level encounter I participated in as a player, which illustrates SilverFireSage's points in his original post.

The encounter:


Party:
1. Level 17 Half Orc Battlemaster Fighter (strength based), known as Decado.
2. Level 17 High Elf Abjurer Wizard, known as Morindin.
3. Level 17 Wood Elf Fighter (Champion )11/Sorcerer 6 (ranged based), known as Argon (not to be confused with Aragon).
4. Level 17 Dwarven War Cleric, known as Druss.

The Fighter/Sorc archer had foresight on him, which is an extremely potent combination with sharpshooter. Foresight used in this way is probably the most damaging spell in the game by far.

Opponents (note my CR's here are approximations, I cannot remember exactly):
1 Vampire (Spell caster variant). CR15
1 Vampire Spawn. CR5
3 Winter Wolves. CR3
16 Skeleton's (spawned later in combat). CR1/4
1 Wraith (spawned later in combat). CR5

The fight started in a crypt with the PC's heading down a narrow stairway into the tomb. The vampire, vampire spawn, and winter wolves were visible as the party came down the stairs. It went (roughly) like this:

1. Wizard gets a wall of force (5) off around the vampire and vampire spawn.
2. Winter Wolves run up to the party and blast them with their icey breath, doing a fair amount of damage. The party is stuck in the entrance with no way forward.
3. Cleric casts etherealness (8) on everyone except the Wizard
4. Wizard casts blink (3) and goes to the ethereal plane
5. Wolves fall back since they have no targets, vampires shake fists from within wall of force.
6. Cleric casts bless (1) on ethereal party members (excluding the Wizard) and they surround the wolves. Archer casts Haste (3) on himself.
7. Wizard blinks back into the tomb, out of sight from the wolves around a corner.
8. Cleric dismisses etherealness, party attacks wolves.
9. Wolves are dispatched.
10. Vampires do more fist shaking.
11. Skeletons burst out of tombs lining the walls of the crypt, about 16 of them. 4 are looking at the Wizard, 4 are looking at the Archer, 4 at the Cleric, and 4 at the Fighter.
12. The Fighter takes some damage, Wizard has his arcane ward, Archer has foresight and haste so he is impossible to hit, and Cleric has damage resistance so shrugs off what little damage he takes.
13. Wizard fireballs (3) his lot of skeletons, Archer multi attacks all of his group and easily takes them down, Cleric runs up to his group and uses a turn undead, destroying them outright, Fighter huffs and puffs and runs towards his group of skeletons, vampires shake fists.
14. Wraith lurks around in the darkness hunting down the Wizard.
15. Skeletons pepper the Fighter with arrows. He's level 17, and has taken about 30 damage from CR1/4 creatures so far. He does manage to cut down a couple throwing hand axes, and eventually with the help of Archer, finishes off his group.
16. Wraith pops out to kill Wizard, but Wizard has arcane ward and shrugs off the attacks. The wraith promptly dies.
17. Cleric casts holy aura (8) in preparation for vampire fight, Wizard dismisses wall of force, and the party attacks.
18. Vampire tries to get the hell out of dodge using legendary actions climbing up the wall, Vampire spawn gets turned and cowers in a corner.
19. Vampire casts blight on the Cleric, (Wizard is blinked, Archer has foresight, Fighter is a bag of hit points, his [the Vampires] rational was to break the Clerics concentration on Holy Aura). Cleric saves, takes a bit of damage, but makes his concentration check.
20. Archer begins peppering Vampire with sharpshooter arrows, Cleric throws sacred flames (0) at him to attempt to stop his regeneration, Wizard blasts him with scorching rays (2). Fighter shakes his hands angrily at vampire from down below.
21. Vampire is taking a beating, and decides it's better to get out of here, and uses invisibility and legendary actions to try and retreat.
22. Party expends some resources locating him, but eventually take him down before he can escape.

All in all this fight was challenging in terms of resource expenditure, and lower CR monsters still had an impact on the fight.