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History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

Galloglaich

First Post
On a totally unrelated note, for those interested in Elizabethan or Renaissance or English history, this is a pretty fascinating link which was recently posted to the Schola Gladiatoria forum by Matt Easton, an article about a 16th Century group in London called the "Blackfriar Gladiators" who appear to have been a martial arts school who did theater combat, but also fought in prize fights, including with swords (that actually went on in England until the 19th Century)

Anyway, I thought it was an amazing aritcle.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=theatrefacpub

G.
 

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Galloglaich

First Post
Well, given those things, imagine a Glyphing Machine being created. It too would be a powerful artifact, maybe even a very small one, but it could have multiple functions. You could possibly build an entire campaign around a Glyphing Machine, and of course those ideas are hardly exhaustive.

I want to get into this in a lot more detail, but I just want to say right here, you have a Dynamite idea for an RPG Campaign, I think a really good publishable campaign that could make money. I'm saying this as someone who has published 5 or 6 things in the industry. You should write this up and sell it to a decent sized gaming company. This has huge potential. Imagine sort of a Medieval DaVinci code meets X-files type scenario, where you have a party running around chasing after clues, putting out fires caused by odd situations, and gradually recongizing and penetrating cyphers and codes at a number of different levels, only being magically manipulated with the glyphs etc. I think it's a fantastic idea. Would fit well in a Call of Cthulhu campaign, or Cthulhu Dark Ages, or something like Warhammer FRPG, or OGL using the Codex rules :)

G.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
There is a very, very interesting discussion about the historical context of the I.33 document, the role of Monks and Monasteries in public defense and also, very interestingly, in training people for judicial combat. Apparently the fortified Churches and Monasteries were common in far more parts of Europe than I ever realized.

Anyway you can read the discussion here, with lots of very well informed people from all over the world chiming in.

SCHOLA SWORDSMANSHIP FORUM • View topic - I.33, Lutegerus and Walpurgis - historical context?

G.
 

Jack7

First Post
I've been kinda busy with a number of things in the past few days. My bitch just littered, my uncle went into Hospice, two ladies at my church just died, I've got an article due on our last Cyberwarfare exercise, helping decorate the church, etc. So I don't wanna just flash by and make a very lackluster and basically useless responses to any of the questions I've been asked or the ideas being discussed. Cause I consider them interesting and important. But I'm tied up right now and so I'll have to make better responses later.

Plus I've been researching the subject(s) of Byzantine monasteries, hermits, Saints, Warrior-Saints, and so forth to give the best and most accurate responses I can. So just bear with me and I'll respond fully about that as soon as I can. By the way I've recently been reading an excellent book on Byzantine History by Lars Brownworth called Lost to the West. I highly recommend it. He has a podcast called "12 Byzantine Rulers" which I hear is excellent. 12 Byzantine Rulers, or here.

Gall, I'm also gonna examine those articles when I get the chance.

Concerning the Glyphs and whatnot I've conducted an experiment the past few nights since I've had to be awake during those entire times anyways.

Last night I wrote a poem based on some coding experiments I've been conducting on a principle I call Philopoetic Impressionism. It's based on an idea concerning poetic contrapuntal formulations, with sometimes simultaneous harmonic overlays. Within the phrasing of individual lines there are subscripted and superscripted terms which change the meaning and definition of individual terms, sections, and the entire poem itself. (The poem itself is 232 words including the sub and superscripted terms.)

It's part of a series of poems I've written based on a code I developed years ago, but it is also part of an on-going experiment I'm conducting regarding developing a Notational System for poetry that would be similar to Western Musical Notation systems for music. (Presentation for poetry as a musical system would be part of the overall "code" in changing or encoding the poetry. Similar to the way ancient Greek functioned as a sing-song language, rather than one based merely upon pitch or inflection, but the poetry form could act as both language and music simultaneously. This then would be part of a much larger system of "Environmental Encoding," based upon written and spoken human language forms.)

Anyway the experiment came off pretty well as both a stand-alone linguistic and poetic effort, and in giving me ideas for and helping me develop a Musical Notation form for poetry. Only in this case it will be much looser than typical musical notation because it will allow the reader to much more flexibly interpret how he chooses to read the work. (And it won't be based upon artificial stress spatters and so forth as are typical for analysis of poetic stanzas and verse forms.) I'm not gonna post the poem here because I've got several buddies of mine in Intel examining the code-structure and next week I'm gonna submit it for magazine publication, but without an explanation of what it really is. Instead I'm just gonna submit it as a poem and see if anyone in the public notices any oddities in form and structure and concludes it is in fact a code. If no-one in the general public does then that will demonstrate to me that the code is well disguised in what to most people would appear as an odd, but otherwise "normal poem." (It will also be odd among modern poems in that it contains several forms of both internal and end point rhyme, including archaic forms, but that's a different matter, and a personal gripe I have with most modern and free form poetic structures. Though free-form structures can sometimes serve as good frameworks for good and hard to detect code emplacement.)

Anywho I also produced another version of the same poem but this time written in Glyphs (a gypping form I developed myself some time ago). So now through this experiment I know that it is quite possible to produce poetry which is both functional (and which makes a facade presentation of normal poetry), to encode it "impressionally," and to produce a glyphed form of the same work which contains covertly encoded within it the other two framework structures. I haven't yet calculated the exact mathematical variations of possible meaning forms this will allow me to produce, but it should be rather formidable for a tertiaarily-tiered structure, because I can alter meaning within any of the three base structures at any point by adding what in effect will be dynamic and expressive and pitch and tempo notations, etc. In that case it may allow me practically infinite varieties of ad hoc meaning fluxions or fluctuations.

I guess that's neither here nor there but this series of experiments have allowed me to make considerable progress on both my poetic and gypping encoding systems and has given me a number of ideas on how to employ both in both the real world and in gaming situations. As well as some ideas of how to produce Simulation scenarios and exercises using these same principles.

Well, I didn't mean to yak about that so much.
It's time for me to hit the hay and we can discuss this and other matters later.

Next time I'm also gonna be returning to the idea of Byzantine and Warrior monks.
It may be a few days though. I got church tomorrow and need to rest, and I got a Senior Members Officer's meeting at my squadron on Monday. But I'll hit it as soon as I can.

Night all.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Jack,

Way over my head but sounds interesting.

Don't rush or skip real life for a forum thread, we'll be around when things settle down for you.

G.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Question from another forum:

valadil said:
What exactly do you get out of looking at Talhoffer plates? I can get a sense of what weapons were used but the stances all look awkward to me. I realize that they're designed to remind you of a combat form you once learned, as opposed to teaching you the form from scratch. I just haven't been able to glean any useful information off of them. It would be amazing if someone could post a link to one or two and guide me through the information I should be seeing.

Don't feel bad, Talhoffer is one of the most notoriously tricky to interpret if you don't already know the Lichtenauer system at least somewhat. Talhoffer has some of the most widely accessable and most clearly rendered drawings of the earlier masters, and he was very prolific writing several books, one of which was releasd in an inexpensive print edition very early on in the 'HEMA revival'. A lot of re-enactor groups you meet with a tentative interest in HEMA say they are 'studying Talhoffer', which usually means they look at the plates with bewilderment as you have. Talhoffer is intentionally cryptic, he doesn't explain much. To understand him, study an overview of HEMA or directly read Ringeck, Dobringer, Leukunker, and also later masters such as Joachim Meyer and Paulus Hector Mair. They are the key to the system. Ringeck spells the whole thing out in (written) detail, 16th Century guys like Joachim Meyer go into much more detail combined with technically precise wood-cuts and drawings.

That said there are many Talhoffer interpretations online, for example these messer plays from MEMAG are very clearly spelled out in this vid. Their interpretation isn't perfect but I've done these disarms in sparring they work very well.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74[/ame]

The morte strike seems awkward to me. I've gathered that the blade of a sword isn't that sharp (especially the ricasso) and against an armored foe you need something with concussion force.
That is I think something of a Ren-Faire myth. Very generally speaking, swords were sharp, sharper than you think. It's just counterintuive but true that you can grab a sharp sword without hurting yourself if you know what you are doing.

Here is a good video demonstrating this quite dramatically with a sharp sword:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E4aSlLyBTo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E4aSlLyBTo[/ame]

What I don't get is how you would switch to this kind of grip. Was it just for one strike, or did you continue holding the sword that way after switching?
It's again, kind of counter-intuitive but it can definitely be done from the bind (which I've done many times in sparring), but also at onset. Half-swording in general and Mortschlag in particular are techniques seen much more frequently in Harnichfechten (fighting in full plate armor) but they do also show up in Blossfechten(fighting unarmored or in light armor)

Good example of transitioning to halfsword from the bind
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Pnw-9A8qQ&feature=fvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Pnw-9A8qQ&feature=fvw[/ame]

Some videos of Talhoffer mortschlag plays:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTKfw1dum0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTKfw1dum0[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGA-Q0hlZxw&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGA-Q0hlZxw&NR=1[/ame]

There is also a bunch of good halfswording stuff in Reclaiming the Blade if you haven't seen that, the Wallers do a great segment on Mortschlag in particular where you can get a good idea what the transition would look like in a real fight (or a movie which you shoul be seeing more of in the next few years, since several HEMA people I know are now training Hollywood stuntmen and fight coordinators.).

G.
 
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EroGaki

First Post
A bit off topic, but this thread, I feel, is the best place to ask on the boards. I am trying to beef up my knowledge on a few subjects: medieval warfare, medieval weapons, and information on the Achaemenid Empire (culture, government, etc). I've tried looking for websites on the subjects, but many of them are contradictory and generally unhelpful. The good folks who frequent this thread seem to be the knowledgeable sort, and I was wondering if anyone knows of any decent books or websites on the subjects.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
I recommend, generally speaking, the Osprey Military books as very good research aids for gamers, and also cheap (around $12-$15 new) and focused on specific areas so you can get detail you need without swamping yourself with the entire broad reach of history. They are not free of mistakes and some Academics look down on them, but I found them generally pretty accurate, far more so than most RPG resources, and they are always well illustrated with often leading-edge detail on the weapons and armor etc., as well as a good overview or synopsis of a given battle or time period (the Vikings, the 1st Crusade, the North Sea pirates, the Templars, etc. etc.)

Which one you will like the best really depends on the specific period you are focused on There is a post up-thread somewhere where I listed several I liked, as well as some other good Academic books on Medieval warfare (Delbruck et-al)

Online, for the Persians, you probably can't do better than the RomanArmyTalk.com website.

• View forum - Allies & Enemies of Rome

That place is full of serious fanatics who really know their stuff, I'm always finding photos of rare weapons or armor that I never see anywhere else. For anything dealing with the Dark Ages back to the early Classical period that is probably your ideal option.

I found this other mega-thread here on an RPG forum called 'Giants in the Playground', which I have participated in. There is a lot of good information in it about Medieval warfare etc.

Got a Real-World Weapon or Armor Question? Mk. VI - Giant in the Playground Forums

As for books on medieval weapons... well you know I'm biased on that. But for swords you can't go wrong with Ewart Oakeshott. He has several books ranging from small pamphlet like overviews of the arms of a knight "The Knight and his Sword", to painstakingly detailed overviews of surviving antique swords "Records of the Medieval Sword"

I also really like Sir Richard Burtons "Book of the Sword" which is a fascinating overview of very early weapons.

Any question you have about Medieval weapons, and photographs of surviving antiques of every Medieval weapon you can think of, as well as good reviews of good replicas, can be found at Myarmoury

myArmoury.com: Home Page

Finally the HEMA forums are a very good resource for anything to do with Medieval combat. I like Schola Gladiatoria out of the UK, you'll find a lot of experts there from all over Europe.

SCHOLA SWORDSMANSHIP FORUM • Index page


Hope that helps, and feel free to ask any specific questions you may have here.

G.
 

Jack7

First Post
EG, if it's Western Medieval History, Warfare, etc. then it's probably Gall who you'll want to ask. He seems to know a lot in general regarding the West (and even some on Eastern Europe) and is awfully good at research.

But others visit this thread on occasion and they often make really good comments as well.

Now I know some technical issues involving the history of warfare and of Medieval life in general. In the West I mean. And about the development of the Church, Christianity, and religion.

But my real specialty in this regard is the Byzantine Empire (the Eastern Romans), their manner of warfare, their interactions in their sphere of control, their government, culture, Orthodoxy, etc. I also know a good deal about the Eastern Roman encounters with the Persians (though typically much later than you're speaking about), and later with those Muslim regimes which conquered the Zoroastrians and the Persians. So if you have any questions in that regard I think I could probably help.

My suggestion, generally speaking, is not to rely very heavily upon just internet sources. They are generally speaking (not in all cases, but generally speaking) not nearly as good as real historical, archaeological, and anthropological sources or as good as real history books. And if you're gonna look up real historical sources that are of value then I suggest that there are various internet libraries (including good international ones), as well as your own local library system (not really sure where you live, looked you up but it didn't say) that you could try (especially their research departments), and if you're in the US then try the Library of Congress. And of course university libraries.

You might find information on the ancient Persian dynasties somewhat limited (I used to encounter the same basic situation while researching the Byzantines, though this has changed for the better in the past few years) or you may have to really dig, but I'm sure you'll be able to turn over at least some really good sources. But as someone who is an amateur historian and archeologist all I can really say is that you can expect contradictory information form time to time, and form research era to research era. Due to new discoveries, theories, etc.

Anywho, speaking once again in a general sense it is my impression that this is the single best thread on this site for research and I suggest wading back through this thread for various tid-bits of very useful information regarding warfare, Medieval life, government, religion, etc.

I'll be happy to answer any specific questions about the things I said I tend to know about if you have any.

As for me I know I've promised responses on the Warrior Monks of the Byzantines, and I'm still writing that up, because I need to provide some background material for it to make sense or be of much use. Plus I've had to attend a lot of funerals and wakes lately, people from my church, my uncle, people from my squadron, etc. So I'm gonna get to it as soon as possible.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
I agree with all of that... we are lucky to have Jack7 around here because his expertise in the Byzantines is so valuable to understanding such a wide swath of European History. A continuous literate culture which lasted from Roman Imperial times through the Dark Ages and almost into the Renaissance... it's quite a resource. These people wrote about everything that was going on around them, from the Visigoths and the Huns to the Vikings to the Crusaders, the Arabs and birth of Islam, the formation of the Venetian Republic (from a tiny Byzantine client-state) and the rise and fall of the Sassanids and the Khazars... If you want to know anything about any of these folks, look to the Byzantine sources.

Which is another good point Jack raised. The various interpreted resources are great, but you really want to get a feel for a given period, read the Primary sources. Herodotus for the Persian wars, Thucydides for the Peleponnesian Wars, Xenophon for the post- Hellenistic period, Julius Caesar for the late Roman Republic, Tacitus for the Imperial dealings with Germania and Britannia... the Icelandic sagas for the Vikings, Ana Comnena (Byzantine Princesss) for the 1st Crusade. These are just a few I've read, surprisingly accessible and modern in their flow, easy reads.... but with that certain quality of mystery and archaic sense of wonder... They really put you in these periods and make you feel them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Comnena

The Byzantines actually wrote an Encyclopedia of the Classical world in the 11th Century, believe it or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda

I suspect there are many people on this forum who are very well informed on Medieval History etc., it's just been rare to link that to gaming. So far Jack and I and a few others have kept this particular thread going, I suspect more and more people will chime in because the interest in Historically- and Mythologically- grounded RPG's is growing among a certain segment of gamers.

G.
 
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