History, Mythology, Art and RPGs

Galloglaich

First Post
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that Galloglaich is a fan of the Human Weapon TV Series and the Commad and Colors Ancients boardgame!

I did like the Human Weapon series though there were some things about it which were a little off -that's pretty typical for those kind of documentaries. Never heard of Command and Colors maybe I should look it up. Hardly ever play board games any more I miss them, I don't know too many people who are into them any more.

G.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Galloglaich

First Post
Three things you might be shocked to know about Armor

Ok part II of the armor essay, this should be the more fun part, dealing with mail and plate armor.

The word is Mail not "Chainmail"...

..but call it whatever you like. Current belief is that it dates back as far as about 500 BC, and it was apparently invented by the Celts. The earliest known samples are from Celtic graves in Romania from the 4th Century BC. The Romans adopted it shortly after Rome was sacked by the Celts in 387 BC and it became the principle armor of the Roman Legion (equipping almost every front-line Legionnaire) from around the 3rd century BC until well into the 2nd Century AD, i.e. during the peak of Roman power. Mail armor was also likely a very important part of the rise of military power in Western Europe in the medieval period.

The most shocking thing you might not know about Armor in general and Mail in particular is the same reason the Romans so quickly adopted it and went to massive expense to equip all their legions with it: it worked. When we see armor portrayed in movies it never works. It is pretty much just the ineffective uniform of the bad guy. It never provides any protection unless it's magic. But of course, our ancestors who made and wore this in spite of the cost and weight, didn't have any magic to protect them, no mythril and adamantine, only iron and steel. Did they just wear it for decoration?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baadNmz_NnU"]YouTube - Scared Stormtroopers[/ame]
What is the point of wearing all that armor when a teddy bear with a moldy log can kill you with one blow?

In movies, a bad guy can be dispatched by a gentle draw cut across the stomach by his heroic opponent. In RPGs and Computer Games it's not much better. Pretty much any weapon can defeat armor, it's mostly a minor inconvenience (or a small incremental protection).

This seems to originate from our general modern contempt for the technology and wisdom of our ancestors, but more specifically in the gaming community due to the early attempts of re-enactors to re-create 'Chainmail' in the SCA and at Ren Faires. They came up with a technique called 'butted' mail.

202c_nickelsilver.jpg


While this is suitible for halloween costumes and arguably, for SCA combat or Ren Faires, it is not historical and provides relatively poor protection against real weapons.

Butted Mail is made from simple crimping the pieces of wire together. It's not very strong. In fact some butted mail lacks the strength to even hold itself together under it's own weight, and is usually made from heavier links just so that it won't develop holes and a 'moth-eaten' appearance spontaneously.

Real historical Mail armor was riveted or welded, meaning each link is riveted with a tiny little rivet, or welded together. This obviously required a much more painstaking process to make. Something the Romans could mass-produce thanks to all the Slave labor they had. Celts and other barbarians had much lower ratios of armored fighters, like one out of every hundred or even worse.

WE-Riveted%20Mail.jpg


This stuff is hard to make but it is really amazingly effective protection

Riveted mail works very well. Indeed, the Royal Armory at Leeds conducted numerous tests with high tech equipment and came to the conclusion that mail armor was virtually impossible to penetrate by medieval hand-weapons.

I have seen many tests myself, from my experience, Mail is basically invulnerable to sword cuts, even axe cuts, though a large two-handed pole-arm like a halberd can penetrate it. Very high energy missile weapons such as longbows can punch through but only at very short range (inside 20 feet or so), as could the very heavy crossbows of the type which appeared in the 15th century, and the early firearms such as the arquebus, all of which contributed to the eventual development of plate armor in the 14th century.

But why listen to me go on about it when thanks to youtube and the internet, I can show you some of the experiments which have been done and you can judge for yourself.

First look at this kid. He may have a screw loose, and kind of looks a little crazy, but he's not as reckless as you might think to try this experiment:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au9tSDueIko"]YouTube - Test kolczugi na nóż kuchenny[/ame]
don't know what this guy is saying, but the video speaks for itself.

Here is a more serious test conducted by John Clements of the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts (the ARMA), one of the early pioneers of the HEMA movement.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdSCXJf7kDc"]YouTube - Mail armour cutting test[/ame]
Notice as he easily cuts a tatami mat (used for testing samurai swords) with his messer before attempting to cut the mail. I got to handle this same sample of mail he is cutting here, and witnessed several people try unsuccessfully to penetrate it with knives, swords and axes. This was an exceptionally strong piece of tempered steel Mail, but this strength was not unusual in the Renaissance.


As I said, even against powerful bows using armor piercing (bodkin) arrows at very short range, mail armor protects the wearer.

Test Maill versus Arrows.


Byzantine Princess Ana Comnena described the horror and amazement of the Turks at witnessing Crusaders continuing to advance with arrows sticking in their armor like this.


In fact after decades of testing, modern armor makers finally came to the conclusion that Mail was the only effective way to protect against knives and it is being incorporated into the highest quality modern stab-proof vests for the police in the UK and US prison guards.

Ballistic vest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plate Armor

The most shocking thing you might not know about plate harness (or full body armor), aside from the fact that it works, is that it came quite late. In fact the articulated 'knight in shining armor' type we know so well from movies and RPGs, actually appeared considerably after the invention of firearms.

Simpler forms of plate armor go very far back though. The earliest form of plate armor is the helmet. Helmets are arguably the single most ubiquitous form of protective kit other than the shield, and were made even before the advent of metal armor. For example the greeks during the time of Agamemnon (Myceneans) made helmets out of boars teeth


79727326.vOWkDAYs._DSC1625.jpg


I don't know how well the boars tooth helmets worked, but helmets made of iron were very good protection, as you can see in this video
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h0e0NSwYNg&feature=related[/ame]

They could be scary too, like this 16th century Totenkopf helmet
l_1935a876f8bd05f255e4caf98e14f1c6.jpg

This would fit right into a death-knight or anti-paladin villain in a DnD campaign


l_15de1072718426f40651c1f3660de77c.jpg

Articulated plate armor was very effective, even against high energy missiles like Longbows,

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk&feature=related"]YouTube - Longbow vs Plate Armour[/ame]

but it was also extremely expensive.

l_3c54614c4da91f8df8fd76e5af3761fd.jpg

Contrary to popualr mythology, it was usually well fitted and did not restrict combat movement.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg"]YouTube - Armour Aerobics[/ame]

Nor did you require a hoist to get into the saddle, nor did you need help getting up after falling off your horse as you can see clearly here

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg&NR=1"]YouTube - Down from horseback with armour[/ame]
husarz.jpg

Plate armor survived after the era of the cannon, in the form of the cuirass or breastplate, and of course the steel helmet which never did go away. The term 'bullet proof' comes from armor makers going back to the 1500s who would shoot their armor plates and mark the dents as 'proof' that they were bullet proof.

The tradition lives on to today.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1K2DZ7NUoM"]YouTube - Test shooting[/ame]

In conclusion

So does any of this matter to your DnD game? Maybe not, but it can't hurt to see the reality of armor, if you ever get to the point where the fantasy version simply isn't making sense for you in your game, you can always go back to the source and start with an historical grounding. Because it does make all those funny weapons and tactics that were used in ancient times actually make sense and 'balance' when you put them all together as they really were.

And who knows you might even find historical combat is even more interesting and dramatic than the kind you do in WoW.

G.
 
Last edited:

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The guy from that armor & horseback video is Mike Loades on his show "Weapons that made Britain"- great show!

One of the best points he made in that series was this: The armor of the day was well designed to protect the wearer from the weapons of the day.

The second best point he made was that no armor was perfect- each had a flaw that an experienced warrior with the right tool could exploit.

The main flaw, common to all armors, is the human inside- specifically his soft tissues (esp. the brain). While the armor may prevent a blade from slashing flesh, a spear from thrusting deep, or a mace from crushing a limb, the non-compressibility of the water that makes up so much of our bodies means a solid blow may result in hydrostatic shock that could debilitate a seemingly uninjured combatant. That is why maces were so popular after the advent of full plate. Ditto the development of the Mortschlag- the Murder Blow- where the combatant grasped the blade and struck at his foe's head using the crosspiece of his blade like a hammer or pick.

While a mace blow or mortschlag might not break bone or even cause a bruise, the resultant hydrostatic shock could disrupt the nervous system of the person struck, resulting in a "dead arm" or even a concussion- either of which is debilitating enough to leave the victim vulnerable to more lethal attacks.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
The guy from that armor & horseback video is Mike Loades on his show "Weapons that made Britain"- great show!

Yes it's one of the very few pop history shows I've ever seen that really got it right, Mike Loades really gets it.

One of the best points he made in that series was this: The armor of the day was well designed to protect the wearer from the weapons of the day.

The second best point he made was that no armor was perfect- each had a flaw that an experienced warrior with the right tool could exploit.
Of course, and the primary 'flaw' for 95% of the combatants was that the armor usually did not cover the whole body. The number of people who could afford cap-a-pied armor protection was tiny. So the best way to defeat armor was usually to go around it, something most RPG combat systems don't really model.

But that wasn't easy in the middle of a fight, making even partial armor protection incredibly valuable, if you have ever tried sparring with weapons you know how difficult it is not to be hit, and if you have ever cut with a realistic replica you know how devastating these weapons are to unprotected flesh.

just as an example of that, consider this test cut and this one on deer carcases, (warning those clips are not for the squeamish)

This is the real reason the Roman Legions did so well in attrition warfare of the type so often practiced during their heydey, with both sides exchanging javelins and darts all day, the side with little to no armor is at a crippling disadvantage.

To face a fully armored knight was a daunting challenge indeed. It's no accident that the stunning military successes of the First Crusade coincided with Mail armor beginning to creep toward cap-a-pied coverage, this is one of the principle reasons the crusaders were such a shock to the Turks and the Arabs initially according to their own records.

The main flaw, common to all armors, is the human inside- specifically his soft tissues (snip) That is why maces were so popular after the advent of full plate. Ditto the development of the Mortschlag- the Murder Blow-
Of course, thats why the whole system of "harnichefechten" developed as a seperate martial art from the earlier form which became the default unarmored combat ("blossfechten"), and why all the attendent systems of half-swording etc. (including the Mortschlag)
liberi62.jpg

and the further development of KampfRingen or war-wrestling, (in an almost identical to German fencing as Jujitsu is with Japanese fencing -) became so developed as a means of getting armored opponents into that disadvantageous position.

l_83c4108d1d9a45698cd1024997fd9f39.jpg


And of course this is also the reason for the development of not only heavy maces of the European type, but all the specialist armor piercing and armor-cleaving weapons like poll-hammers, war-picks, etc.

l_7096ce2cc6e04a078325fd2d6263cca2.jpg

WarHammerLarge.jpg

which became so prominent in the Renaissance battlefields -- and none of which really make any sense in RPGs because there is really no way in most RPG combat systems to model the differences between an armor piercing weapon like a war-pick and say, a sword.

The unarmored fighter is at a huge disadvantage against even a partially armored warrior- the armored fighter can wield a sword which is extremely effective at cutting flesh, wheras the unarmored warrior had better have either a specialized armor - piercing weapon or a high energy missile thrower like a heavy arbalest (crossbow) or an arquebus.

And of course they did figure that out, the hegemony of the Knight was largely broken by innovative commoners quite early, well before Plate armor became well established. The Swiss defeated the Hapsburg Knights at Morgarten (1315), the Flemish annihilated the French knights at Golden Spurs (1302) by inventing new weapons which could defeat armor. The Flemish had their Guden-Tag ("good morning") the Swiss invented the Halberd and had their heavy Crossbows, and later the pike.
goedendr.jpg

The invincible Czech Hussites, another rebellion of commoners, further perfected new systems for defeating the fully armored knight which included their invention of the pistol, the use of war-wagons, and the adaptation of agricultural flails (and the farmers who knew how to use them) into deadly military weapons by adding spikes and iron bands. This proved effective enough for them to defeat all five international Crusades launched to destroy them.

All of which is potentially interesting stuff you could use in an RPG game :)

hanumanji2.jpg

Speaking of Maces, don't you think it's interesting that the Mace, (sometimes masked as a 'scepter') is always, in seemingly every culture, the chosen weapon of Kings? When you consider who a King has to worry about most - his fellow aristocrats, who are likely to have armor, it kind of makes sense doesn't it.

G.
 
Last edited:

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Speaking of Maces, don't you think it's interesting that the Mace, (sometimes masked as a 'scepter') is always, in seemingly every culture, the chosen weapon of Kings? When you consider who a King has to worry about most - his fellow aristocrats, who are likely to have armor, it kind of makes sense doesn't it.

Yeah- the weapon of choice for rulers is either some form of mace/scepter or the sword in probably 90% of the iconography, for that and many other reasons.
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Yeah- the weapon of choice for rulers is either some form of mace/scepter or the sword in probably 90% of the iconography, for that and many other reasons.

yes but as far as I know, the crown jewels, the symbol of rule of basically any King or Emperor of anywhere always include a "scepter" or some other kind of fancy mace.

Swords also of course as they are basically the ultimate prestige hand-weapon.

G.
 


DarenCommons

First Post
Cheers!

Galloglaich
i just wanted to chime in and say I really enjoy the info you're sharing. I appreciate the DnD perspective on historical fighting. I've been dabbling in a sword fighting school called the Western Circle recently myself,,, Even if it never translates into game mechanics it is a great inspiration to the imagination when you have this background knowledge. Anyways, thanks!
 

Galloglaich

First Post
Galloglaich
i just wanted to chime in and say I really enjoy the info you're sharing. I appreciate the DnD perspective on historical fighting. I've been dabbling in a sword fighting school called the Western Circle recently myself,,, Even if it never translates into game mechanics it is a great inspiration to the imagination when you have this background knowledge. Anyways, thanks!

Thanks Daren, it's nice to hear that. Good luck in your training. If you have any insights relevant to RPGs post them to this thread :)

G.
 

mmadsen

First Post
So the best way to defeat armor was usually to go around it, something most RPG combat systems don't really model.
That's something D&D's AC-based system does oddly well, except that many of the attacks -- magic weapons, dragon bites, giant-thrown boulders, etc. -- should be able to overcome armor more directly.
 

Remove ads

Top