D&D General Hit Point alternate to + CON mod?

[UngeheuerLich]

So because it doesn't work for you, it couldn't possibly work or make sense for anyone else?

No. But saying that if gygax did it differently we would all argue for his view is a stupid assumption. That dismisses any reasonable conversation.

 

[Aldarc]

No. But saying that if gygax did it differently we would all argue for his view is a stupid assumption. That dismisses any reasonable conversation.

How so? D&D created a lot of the sense of TTRPG normativity, and some people are incapable of getting the heads out of their hinders when it comes to conceptualizing games other than D&D or games operating in ways other than how D&D does things. There is a lot to be said about being first to the TTRPG scene and how that derived a sense of what constitute the normative attributes.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

How so? D&D created a lot of the sense of TTRPG normativity, and some people are incapable of getting the heads out of their hinders when it comes to conceptualizing games other than D&D or games operating in ways other than how D&D does things. There is a lot to be said about being first to the TTRPG scene and how that derived a sense of what constitute the normative attributes.

While that is correct, being the first does not automatically make it the best. It sounded like the accusation of just doing it that way because 'the creator" says it has to be that way.
Instead I can base my opinion on experiences with systems that don't have CON and personally don't like it for my aforementioned reasons.

Just merging the two has illogical side effects.

 

[GMMichael]

+1 hit point per level. Done and done.

Okay, fine. You chose a high Con for a reason. Starting HP = Con score. At level up: hit die only.

#1: Hit points are toughness. When you lose hps, your toughness is taxed and wanes.
#2: It is an abstraction. D&D is a story game, not a simulation. Trying to make HP loss more realistic just undercuts heroic stories. It does not make your stories more gritty, just more tedious, annoying and frustrating.
#3: It is not broke. If it ain't broke ...

The suggestion is that it IS broken, since strength and wisdom have just as much to do with "toughness" as constitution does, but those scores aren't included in HP calcs.

On one side, I don't like that Constitution is never a stat you can dump, or even leave at average. All other stats can, depending on built, with variable consequences, but hp are universally important.

On the other side, Constitution contributes to few aspects of the game outside hp. The other big contribution is Con saves, which are important to the game, but D&D has few Con-based abilities, skills, and proficiencies compared to other stats. So removing that contribution has a huge impact...

You can dump Con if it only determines your starting HP. Later, if you're worried about Con saves, you'd better play a character who knows he's fragile. Magical protection from spells, always breaking line-of-sight from magic-users, carry a dragon-bladder (rebreather), stay behind the crunchies...

Whoever thinks casters need more than d4 hit points per level doesn't know how to play a caster

 

[Laurefindel]

Then I guess you didn't really want to play this concept you had then? If your concept was a bard that was incredibly weak physically, why would you regret it when in fact your character actually was weak physically? What exactly would be the point of saying your character had poor health (emblematic by putting a low number in CON)... but statistically you wanted your HP based on some other stat so that you didn't actually have to PLAY someone with poor health because the game mechanics meant you fell unconscious too often?

At that point... you might as well just roleplay your character's identity in whatever manner you want, regardless of what the stats are. If you had wanted to play a highly intelligent, incredibly wise, and exceedingly charismatic character.... you could do that even if you end up deciding to put one of those mental stats into 4th position so that you could bump up your CON merely for game mechanic combat sake. No one would care. And no one would question you by asking "Why are you playing your character so smart when he only has a +1 INT mod?" No one knows or can say how a +1 INT mod character plays compared to a +2 INT mod character, so what your stats are doesn't actually matter. How you play your character is how you play your character regardless of the numbers on your sheet.

10 isn't supposed to be incredibly weak. At low levels it doesn't show much, but the character felt progressively more fragile as it leveled-up.

How I roleplay my character is irrelevant. The point is that Con has a disproportional mechanical impact characters compared to other secondary ability scores. It's cool if you see this as a feature, or simply don't see it as a bug. But I do. It's not important enough of an issue for me to be worth altering the game significantly, but when the subject comes in a thread, those are my observations.

 

[Flamestrike]

Recently I have participated in another futile debate about what are hit points. However, it got me thinking: if HP is luck, skill, exhausting, toughness all wrapped into one abstract package,

Luck and Skill are determined by class features and level. Specifically higher HD, that increase as one advances in experience. Warrior types are more skilful at dodging blows, turning hits into near misses, parrying attacks that would otherwise kill them, and using armor and shields effectively (represented by a higher HD). The more experienced they get, the better they get at parrying, dodging, using armor and shields and so forth.

Luck comes into it via plot armor. Muscly warrior types are the central characters of most stories and have the plot armor advantage.

Both are baked into those classes as class features.

As for the toughness/ resolve/ health element of HP, that's where Con comes in.

Think of HD as the luck and skill element, with Con doing the rest of the lifting via injury and resolve.

 

[Laurefindel]

You can dump Con if it only determines your starting HP. Later, if you're worried about Con saves, you'd better play a character who knows he's fragile. Magical protection from spells, always breaking line-of-sight from magic-users, carry a dragon-bladder (rebreather), stay behind the crunchies...

Whoever thinks casters need more than d4 hit points per level doesn't know how to play a caster

True. And the Tough feat goes a long way to "fix" a fragile character, not unlike other feats go a long way to "fix" a low CHA or INT. Still, I find the "consequences" of low CON disproportioned from low INT or CHA, for example.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

#1: Hit points are toughness. When you lose hps, your toughness is taxed and wanes.
#2: It is an abstraction. D&D is a story game, not a simulation. Trying to make HP loss more realistic just undercuts heroic stories. It does not make your stories more gritty, just more tedious, annoying and frustrating.
#3: It is not broke. If it ain't broke ...

#1: That's not what the player's handbook says, so . . .
#2: You are correct that any concept of hit points in any game will require a bit of suspension of disbelief, but I disagree that it cannot be more realistic or that making it so would be detrimental to heroic stories.
#3: But it is kind of broke. The 5e definition of hit points don't match up with how you generate them, so . . .

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The thing that kills me about these kinds of threads is that I honestly don't know why anyone actually cares what people's stats are!

CON is always the third-highest stat? So what! What is GAINED by someone having it be their 5th or 6th highest stat? Does their character suddenly become interesting now that they have a low CON? I don't think so. Yeah, they have a lower amount of HP and thus they fall down more often. Okay. Great. Does that make this particular PC now a compelling character? Not in the slightest! You want an interesting character... the player needs to imbue him or her with interesting character details that actually get roleplayed. And that has to come from the player and the player's creativity... NOT from whatever numbers appear on a character sheet.

I swear, it's like DMs are sitting around thinking to themselves "If ONLY I had a PC in my game whose three highest stats were STR, DEX, and INT! WOW would that make this character cool and original! Why can't I ever see that? How can I jerry-rig the game so that someone will have this stat combo?!?"

Well, guess what? Even if there was some build out there that this kind of array would be useful for... if your player is just a bland and disinterested die roller, that stat array ain't gonna matter. Dull players make dull characters regardless of the numbers written down on a sheet of paper. And people would be better served to remember that, rather than continually try and forcefeed these odd stat combos together in an effort to bring some life to their tables.

To me, it's boring that everyone automatically has to have good Con. It is more interesting to flavor hit points as something else other than physical health.

Also, have you ever read the Dragonlance novels? Remember Raistlin? His health problems did add to his character.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

True. And the Tough feat goes a long way to "fix" a fragile character, not unlike other feats go a long way to "fix" a low CHA or INT. Still, I find the "consequences" of low CON disproportioned from low INT or CHA, for example.

I agree, that CON only playing a role in starting hp and hp recovery would be a good change.
The biggest part of con actually is how much you regenerate during short rests. I could easily live with a flat hp per level (probably just max hp for everyone every level, only at first level you get your con bonus to hp (if it is positive), so you don't have a lot to change and roll HD+con as normal on short rests.
The change you see is d6 will effectively have con +2, d8 classes have con +3, d10 have con +4 and the barbarian con +5. Are those characters mkre powerful? Maybe a bit at the beginning, but con still plays a big role during the adventuring day for martial classes and for concentration checks for spellcasters. I guess, that could be a workable solution that is very easy to remember and overal does not imbalance the game at all.