D&D General Hit Point alternate to + CON mod?

[The Crimson Binome]

But there's still a larger chance of damage/death if you dump Wisdom to an 8 than if you were to have a 12 (and Wisdom saving throws are one of the most common in the game, so an important Wisdom based check/save happening every turn is not an outrageous thing to happen this edition).

Really? Every turn? That seems pretty extreme. In the last (1-20) campaign I ran, I don't think there was even a Wisdom save every level (although Perception checks were more common). It would be pretty outrageous for something to force a Wisdom-based check every turn, unless it's a very specific monster and that's its whole gimmick.

In a vacuum, 12 is better than 8, but everything has an opportunity cost; and when you're dealing with something that doesn't show up in every combat (like your attack stat, initiative, and HP), luck is far more important than planning. By putting my 8 in Wisdom, and my 12 in Strength, maybe I'll be the one to break free from the glue bomb and finally shut down the kobold who managed to trap everyone. I mean, probably not, because the law of averages doesn't help when dealing with low-frequency events; but it's not like deliberate planning is going to help much either. Even if you (correctly) assume that Wisdom saves are much more common than Strength saves, neither event will necessarily occur with enough frequency for your choice to really matter. Even if you are +2 on Wisdom saves, it's still entirely possible to go the entire life of a character without that 10% ever making a difference.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Really? Every turn? That seems pretty extreme. In the last (1-20) campaign I ran, I don't think there was even a Wisdom save every level (although Perception checks were more common). It would be pretty outrageous for something to force a Wisdom-based check every turn, unless it's a very specific monster and that's its whole gimmick.

I said Wisdom based check/save. If the enemies are using the hide action and the players need to search for them using Perception, and if enemies can force Wisdom saving throws with spells and other features, it is not outrageous for every turn there to be a Wisdom based save/check.

In a vacuum, 12 is better than 8, but everything has an opportunity cost; and when you're dealing with something that doesn't show up in every combat (like your attack stat, initiative, and HP), luck is far more important than planning. By putting my 8 in Wisdom, and my 12 in Strength, maybe I'll be the one to break free from the glue bomb and finally shut down the kobold who managed to trap everyone. I mean, probably not, because the law of averages doesn't help when dealing with low-frequency events; but it's not like deliberate planning is going to help much either. Even if you (correctly) assume that Wisdom saves are much more common than Strength saves, neither event will necessarily occur with enough frequency for your choice to really matter. Even if you are +2 on Wisdom saves, it's still entirely possible to go the entire life of a character without that 10% ever making a difference.

I can't count the amount of times a player has failed on a saving throw/ability check with a stat that their class has no mechanical need for where a +2 bonus to the roll would have caused them to succeed, or vice versa.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I said Wisdom based check/save. If the enemies are using the hide action and the players need to search for them using Perception, and if enemies can force Wisdom saving throws with spells and other features, it is not outrageous for every turn there to be a Wisdom based save/check.

If the enemy is throwing exclusively Wisdom save spells, then that's a gimmick fight. It's no different than fighting a Mind Flayer, except building for the assumption of one will put you at a disadvantage when encountering the other. There's no net benefit to investing in Wisdom rather than Intelligence.

And if enemies are hiding during combat, repeatedly, then I strongly recommend re-reading the rules for hiding. That shouldn't be happening. (Or if the rules are too vague, and someone made a ruling which ended up with Wisdom checks becoming even more important, then that's something they should have taken into account at the time.)

I can't count the amount of times a player has failed on a saving throw/ability check with a stat that their class has no mechanical need for where a +2 bonus to the roll would have caused them to succeed, or vice versa.

And did you count the number of times where a +2 bonus helped them succeed, where a lack of that bonus would have made them fail? Because those should have been equally as common. Moreover, both phenomena would have been distributed (more-or-less) equally across the ability scores, so shifting a +2 from one stat to another shouldn't make much of a difference.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not really following this thread much anymore, but I will throw this out there:

Start with HP equal to your CON score (or max HD, your choice depending on your game style) and add all your ability score modifiers to the total. When you level up, you just get HD. If an ability score modifier increases, your HP increase by the same amount (typically, +1 or 2).

This way, every ability score affects your HP total because in the abstract sense, all are represented (or could be with certain point of view). For instance:

STR - "might" = shrugging it off
DEX - "avoid" = dodging it, turning with the blow, etc.
CON - "endurance" = taking the hit and the pain and pushing through it
INT - "cunning" = understanding of your opponent's attack and how to avoid it
WIS - "favor" = blessings by your god or luck
CHA - "perseverance" = confidence and belief in yourself that you can survive

Or basically whatever you want to use to justify them.

Most PCs begin with +5 to +8 in total ability score modifiers, by the end of the game you are likely +3 to +5 higher maybe IME.

Obviously this gives PCs better HP at lower levels, but evens out around tier 2 and is lower by tier 3 and 4.

Just a suggestion for people who might like the idea.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

And did you count the number of times where a +2 bonus helped them succeed, where a lack of that bonus would have made them fail? Because those should have been equally as common. Moreover, both phenomena would have been distributed (more-or-less) equally across the ability scores, so shifting a +2 from one stat to another shouldn't make much of a difference.

That's what I meant by "vice versa" but maybe that wasn't the right choice of words.

A 10 percent difference in succeeding on a saving throw/ability check definitely matters and it comes up more often than you are saying it does.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

A 10 percent difference in succeeding on a saving throw/ability check definitely matters and it comes up more often than you are saying it does.

It happens 10% of the time. When you fail a check, 10% of the time it will be by a margin of 1 or 2. When you succeed on a check, 10% of the time it will be by a margin of 1 or 2. If you make 3000 rolls over the course of a campaign, then ~300 of them will succeed or fail by a margin of 1 or 2.

The thing is, unless you are the one initiating the check, it's essentially random as to which one you'll be forced to roll. It could be a Strength check, or it could be a Charisma check. You have no way of knowing. As such, the net benefit of shifting points from Strength to Charisma, or vice versa, is zero. It's just as likely to hurt you, as it is to help you.

In a hypothetical world where Constitution didn't increase your HP, but it still affected your saving throws, there would be zero net benefit for anyone to invest in Constitution rather than Wisdom. It would be just as likely to hurt you as it would be to help you. (Although, since Wisdom still governs Perception and Constitution controls nothing, it would probably be slightly safer to dump Constitution in favor of Wisdom; and there would never be a point in sacrificing Constitution for one of the lesser saves, since those do show up less frequently; and we'd all settle into a new hierarchy where Wisdom replaces Constitution as everyone's best non-primary stat.)

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

In a hypothetical world where Constitution didn't increase your HP, but it still affected your saving throws, there would be zero net benefit for anyone to invest in Constitution rather than Wisdom. It would be just as likely to hurt you as it would be to help you. (Although, since Wisdom still governs Perception and Constitution controls nothing, it would probably be slightly safer to dump Constitution in favor of Wisdom; and there would never be a point in sacrificing Constitution for one of the lesser saves, since those do show up less frequently; and we'd all settle into a new hierarchy where Wisdom replaces Constitution as everyone's best non-primary stat.)

Except that Constitution would have other benefits. It wouldn't just lose the hit point bonus and be left as the worst ability score. It would gain other uses (like the ones I spoke of above), and not be a strictly worse than Wisdom.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Except that Constitution would have other benefits. It wouldn't just lose the hit point bonus and be left as the worst ability score. It would gain other uses (like the ones I spoke of above), and not be a strictly worse than Wisdom.

In that case, making a low stat feel like a real penalty is going to rely on how often you can force it to be checked against. Perception is kind of an outlier, on how often it can be forced. If they can't even make something as tangible as Strength feel like a real penalty, though, then I don't have high hopes for Constitution.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

In that case, making a low stat feel like a real penalty is going to rely on how often you can force it to be checked against. Perception is kind of an outlier, on how often it can be forced. If they can't even make something as tangible as Strength feel like a real penalty, though, then I don't have high hopes for Constitution.

They can fix the other ability scores too (Strength, Intelligence) if/when they changed Constitution. There are ways to do so, fairly simple ways. PCs feel a penalty when they have low Dexterity (heavy armor or not), low Charisma, and low Wisdom (though it is to a lesser extent than the penalties of low Charisma and Dexterity).

 

[dave2008]

Not really following this thread much anymore, but I will throw this out there:

Start with HP equal to your CON score (or max HD, your choice depending on your game style) and add all your ability score modifiers to the total. When you level up, you just get HD. If an ability score modifier increases, your HP increase by the same amount (typically, +1 or 2).

This way, every ability score affects your HP total because in the abstract sense, all are represented (or could be with certain point of view). For instance:

STR - "might" = shrugging it off
DEX - "avoid" = dodging it, turning with the blow, etc.
CON - "endurance" = taking the hit and the pain and pushing through it
INT - "cunning" = understanding of your opponent's attack and how to avoid it
WIS - "favor" = blessings by your god or luck
CHA - "perseverance" = confidence and belief in yourself that you can survive

Or basically whatever you want to use to justify them.

Most PCs begin with +5 to +8 in total ability score modifiers, by the end of the game you are likely +3 to +5 higher maybe IME.

Obviously this gives PCs better HP at lower levels, but evens out around tier 2 and is lower by tier 3 and 4.

Just a suggestion for people who might like the idea.

I generally like the suggestion, but I would not add Con score. I would go with all the modifiers + your class HD at first. Then class HD from there (with the minor bump as ability scores increase).

Plus, bloodied Hit points of course.

So
1st lvl Fighter might have: 14 HP and 6 BHP
5th lvl Fighter might have: 40 HP and 8 BHP
10th lvl Fighter might have: 71 HP and 9 BHP
15th lvl Fighter might have: 102 HP and 9 BHP
20th lvl Fighter might have: 132 HP and 9 BHP

I think I can work with that.