Homosexuality in the Forgotten Realms

[jhkim]

Obviously I can do whatever I want in my own games. (Duh.) I was asking about the game books. Apparently homosexuality does at least appear -- like the consort mentioned above. However, it does sound like it isn't common in the published books. (In retrospect, it does seem silly to believe RPGPundit -- but I did see a semi-confirming source in the Ed Greenwood quote.) I don't need page numbers, but at least what it is and what book it appears in would be nice. The consort mention was just the sort of thing I was looking for.

The Ed Greenwood comments are interesting, but I'd still be interested in whether material appears in anywhere outside of Ed's website.

Also, in case it wasn't clear -- I wasn't asking about sex, just about orientation. i.e. I don't care about whatever women Elminster slept with or how there's a brothel in some city module. Conversely, having a couple of defined orientation counts even if there is nothing sexy.

 

[jdrakeh]

Not to argue the legal point at all, but if it isn't published or even notably advertised, its canon state is not particularly meaningful. Who cares if it is canon if most of the fanbase is unaware of it? Certainly, they cannot apply what they don't know in their games - leading to a 'canon" element that does not appear in the setting's actual use...

That was what I was getting at, actually. Ed's personal version of the Realms is neither supported or published by the IP owner, thus, its status as canon is conceptually very, very, questionable. Legally, it may be. Does most of the fanbase know this or care? I think the case is very strong that they do not (if they did, Candlekeep would be the official source of FR material and. . . ah. . . it's not).

 

[kuje31]

I am reminded of Arthur Dent - had to go down into a basement, with a flashlight, and it was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’

Not to argue the legal point at all, but if it isn't published or even notably advertised, its canon state is not particularly meaningful. Who cares if it is canon if most of the fanbase is unaware of it? Certainly, they cannot apply what they don't know in their games - leading to a 'canon" element that does not appear in the setting's actual use...

However, you could use the same argument for the WOTC Realms web pages or out of print realms material be they sourcebooks/novels/early Dragons and Dungeons/Polyhedrons/etc. I know for a fact that I'm missing many FR Polyhedrons and a handful or so of other sources. Does this make them less official canon because I, as a fan, don't have them? No it doesn't. Just because someone doesn't know of, or own, sources doesn't mean that those sources aren't official canon.

But I can name at least three or four sources that have Candlekeep mentioned in the web article or the dedication at the front of the novel/sourcebook because there has been three recent novels with a dedication to Candlekeep.com as well as Realms web pages on WOTC's site that mention Candlekeep and give links to the site. Brian's sourcebook, the Grand History of the Realms, was mostly worked on at Candlekeep and WOTC's interest in it was because of Candlekeep. Ed, at Gencons, repeatedly says to go to Candlekeep if you want to discuss the Realms with the authors/game designers. I was there last year, so I know this.

So, Candlekeep is known but only if you read web pages, novels, and or listen to authors/game designers at Gencon. Or even read, if you know the web addresses, the online journals of FR authors/game designers. Plus many of us on Keep have, or still are, on the WOTC FR message boards and Candlekeep has been mentioned, repeatedly, over there for the past three or four years. Even here on Enworld we've had our fan FR compendium posted as news on the front page.

For example here's two:

Erik Scott De Brie, in his Depths of Madness dedication, "The scribes at Candlekeep: Sweet water and light laughter."

Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham in their Waterdeep novel, "To all the sages and scribes of Candlekeep, and to The Hooded One for gracing the loreseekers of cyberspace with her tireless efforts and effortless charm."

So all I'm saying is that yes, some people might not know that Ed's words are canon but at the same time if someone is seeking an answer about homosexuality in the setting, I, for one, wouldn't discount the words of the settings creator since the companies that published the setting either had a Code of Ethics which made the topic hands off or the company chooses to not discuss it because it'll anger some fans/parents/etc.

 

[kuje31]

Obviously I can do whatever I want in my own games. (Duh.) I was asking about the game books. Apparently homosexuality does at least appear -- like the consort mentioned above. However, it does sound like it isn't common in the published books. (In retrospect, it does seem silly to believe RPGPundit -- but I did see a semi-confirming source in the Ed Greenwood quote.) I don't need page numbers, but at least what it is and what book it appears in would be nice. The consort mention was just the sort of thing I was looking for.

The Ed Greenwood comments are interesting, but I'd still be interested in whether material appears in anywhere outside of Ed's website.

Also, in case it wasn't clear -- I wasn't asking about sex, just about orientation. i.e. I don't care about whatever women Elminster slept with or how there's a brothel in some city module. Conversely, having a couple of defined orientation counts even if there is nothing sexy.

My point was if you look for those three keywords in my compiled replies ya'll find Ed discussing some NPC's who are homosexual. There's even some NPC's that haven't even seen print except through Ed's replies, etc. Ed also discusses how homosexuality is treated in the setting, etc. For a futher clarifaction about the two rulers of Eversult, Erik de Brie has a short story about them in the Realms of the Elves anthology. And Lhaeo, who was one of Elminster's apprentices, when it was a male Lhaeo, protrayed himself as a lisping lover of men.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Is'nt there a gay ward in Waterdeep?

You know, that's the one sort of real life neighborhood that's never shown up in any TSR/WotC city to my knowledge. That'd be a fun thing to work up for those who are interested in that sort of realism in their settings (and have settings where such behavior is accepted at least as much as it is in our world).

 

[Shemeska]

-[Gross generalization]-

Granted I don't care or pay any particular attention to the sexuality of fictional faerunian NPCs, but, some things tend to pop out after a while of reading particular authors' material.

It seems like any average to attractive looking female that has magical power or noble rank is bisexual (the current female regent of Cormyr and her court wizardress for instance). At least in some of Greenwood's material it strikes me as something of a massive cliche at this point, and since I've not noticed the same for men of similar standing, it makes it stand out even more.

Granted the buying audience is mostly straight guys, so that on some level panders to that group, but the subtle (and assuredly unintentional) subtext that powerful and independant women aren't straight could come off as mildly offensive.

 

[Crust]

You know, that's the one sort of real life neighborhood that's never shown up in any TSR/WotC city to my knowledge. That'd be a fun thing to work up for those who are interested in that sort of realism in their settings (and have settings where such behavior is accepted at least as much as it is in our world).

PCs are fleeing from the local watch patrol. They hastily duck into a side alley and file quickly through a door leading into the back of some public building. Once they take in their new surroundings, they find that they're being stared at by a barroom full of mustached, leather-clad men, their jackets adorned with silver studs and chains, many sporting leather caps. One such patron boldly grabs a hold of the party fighter who looks strangely like Lance Kinsey (too stunned to take his AoO, of course), and then the music kicks in. The fighter disengages himself from the smiling dancer, and the party rushes out the front door, passing a sign that reads, "The Blue Oyster."

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

Tasteful discussion of sexuality in games is a good thing. However, slurs against groups of people are not an acceptable form of humor around here. Please, folks, don't continue along this line.

Oh, sorry Umbran. I happen to live in a gay neighborhood (Hillcrest in San Diego) and most of my friends are gay. As a result, I'm surrounded by this kind of humor all the time. I tend forget that PC lines are enforced much more strictly outside my circle of friends.

My gay friends thought it was funny. Regardless, apologies to anyone who took offense.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Mustached, leather clad men? I think those guys are in pretty much every adventure party as-is.

Seriously, though, the more I think about this, the more I want to pick a residential street in Ptolus and talk to one of my players about what a gay neighborhood in the City by the Spire (no jokes, please) would look like.

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

According to sociologists and sexologists, gay folks tend to make up about 10-15% of the human population across many cultures (with surprisingly larger numbers representing dabblers and bisexuals). Gayness is also seen among many other kinds of mammals. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the humans of the Forgotten Realms partake in the lifestyle.

I am still convinced that the proportion would be higher among elves. They're all way too good looking and fashion-conscious.