How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

[Visigani]

Hmm

.

Guffaw! The Internet: Helping unfunny people try to be witty since 19XX.



More to the point, Patterns, Glamers, and Phantasms are mind affecting or adjust the sensory properties of a thing. If you had a spell "detect red" and then cast invisibility on that item the red would be just as invisible as the rest of the item. This can be assumed because invisibility makes all the PROPERTIES of the item in question just as invisible as the item itself.

Further, if something is "only in your mind" you can't "detect magic" on it because what you're seeing isn't actually there and so has no "properties" to speak of. You would have to know that the object, creature, or whatever in question was magic to begin with otherwise your mind would not assign it an aura of magic.


For example, let's say I created a phantasm of an orange in your mind. You use detect magic to see if the orange is magic but because the orange doesn't exist in the first place (unlike a figment which does exist outside the viewer) it cannot give off an aura of magic.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Let's see if I can help...

So your saying that most illusions are real? If they are real then they shouldn't be illusions now should they?

I submit that this is the source of your problem. The rules of D&D contradict themselves and exhibit gross incongruities at many junctures. It is an unavoidable consequence that games which introduce elements that have no basis in reality e.g. "magic"....will not not pass a credibility test at one point or another. The mechanics in D&D are concoctions and in many cases wholly arbitrary. Debating that "magic", a thing which does not exist, should work any particular way, is worse than arguing how aliens from another planet are going to act. Trying to argue how it should really work is an exercise in futility.

The authors make an effort to incorporate some internal consistency in the rules engine, but they are only human. Ergo, they fail at various times. Arguing "reality" or getting hung up on word definitions is a lose-lose proposition. The best you can do is to make an attempt understand the thought process of the authors and see if the rules as written make the game more playable or less. It's a subjective call.

 

[kitcik]

This can be assumed because invisibility makes all the PROPERTIES of the item in question just as invisible as the item itself.

While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

I would make a joke here, but I think by now any reader is already LTAO.

 

[Visigani]

I would make a joke here, but I think by now any reader is already LTAO.

Well, I stand corrected. You know more about dungeons and dragons than I do. You're still an online prick that's looking to instigate a fight. So, I'll take mild comfort in that at least.

Mod note: That's quite enough name calling. Rule #1 is "Keep it civil", and Visigani here has failed to do so. He won't be part of this conversation any more. Needless to say, anyone continuing in this vein can expect to get worse than he did. I hope that's clear enough. If it isn't, please take it to e-mail or Pm with a moderator discuss. ~Umbran

 

[xigbar]

You're still an online prick that's looking to instigate a fight.

I just want to capture the irony of this statement by itself. That's all. You can ignore me.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Invisibility makes flaming swords invisible.

Okay.

A flaming sword is a sword with a magical aura that is naturally visible.

Nice try. That "naturally visible magical aura" is called fire. The sword's actual magical aura remains invisible, except to things like detect magic.

Despite this invisibility also makes the MAGIC inherent to the sword invisible.

Incorrect. The magic inherent to the sword is already invisible, except to things like detect magic.

It can be assumed then that if you cast detect magic and viewed an invisible person wielding a magical weapon you would not be able to detect that invisible weapon as the spell of invisibility itself would make the aura imperceptible, just as it makes the flaming aspect of the flaming sword aura imperceptible.

Your incorrect premise (that a flaming sword's flame is a "naturally visible magical aura") leads you to an incorrect conclusion.

 

[Tovec]

More to the point, Patterns, Glamers, and Phantasms are mind affecting or adjust the sensory properties of a thing. If you had a spell "detect red" and then cast invisibility on that item the red would be just as invisible as the rest of the item. This can be assumed because invisibility makes all the PROPERTIES of the item in question just as invisible as the item itself.

On invisibility. Even if that's not RAW then it should be RAI. I've always used it that way. If you are looking for a cantrip to bypass invis then use glitterdust not detect magic.

Further, if something is "only in your mind" you can't "detect magic" on it because what you're seeing isn't actually there and so has no "properties" to speak of. You would have to know that the object, creature, or whatever in question was magic to begin with otherwise your mind would not assign it an aura of magic.


For example, let's say I created a phantasm of an orange in your mind. You use detect magic to see if the orange is magic but because the orange doesn't exist in the first place (unlike a figment which does exist outside the viewer) it cannot give off an aura of magic.

What??


@Vegepygmy

What?

Okay, forget the visible magical aura thing. Go with the spell descriptions for invisibility and detect magic. Cone-shaped emanation I always took to be from the spellcaster's eyes SEEING the aura of things as opposed to smelling, tasting or hearing them. I've always said magical auras look like cotton candy. Not important. However, the "vanishing from sight" would be important. How can you see something through detect magic if they're not there to be seen.

Invisibility Spell

The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a creature carrying gear, that vanishes, too. If you cast the spell on someone else, neither you nor your allies can see the subject, unless you can normally see invisible things or you employ magic to do so.
Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible.
Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
Invisibility can be made permanent (on objects only) with a permanency spell.

Besides then there'd be no need for.. the See Invisibility spell.

You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility. It does not reveal illusions or enable you to see through opaque objects. It does not reveal creatures who are simply hiding, concealed, or otherwise hard to see.
See invisibility can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

 

[Dandu]

Well, if you want to see an invisible creature to shoot it, Detect Magic would hardly be the best spell for the job.

The "vanishing from sight" would be important. How can you see something through detect magic if they're not there to be seen.

In the same way that Romulan Warbirds can be detected via their tachyon emissions when their cloaking field is active? (Star Trek: The Next Generation Season 5, Episode 1: Redemption, Part II)

 

[xigbar]

Well, if you want to see an invisible creature to shoot it, Detect Magic would hardly be the best spell for the job.


In the same way that Romulan Warbirds can be detected via their tachyon emissions when their cloaking field is active? (Star Trek: The Next Generation Season 5, Episode 1: Redemption, Part II)

I'm sorry, you lost me there.

 

[Ranger19k]

Besides then there'd be no need for.. the See Invisibility spell.

This was addressed in the FAQ, for whatever that's worth. Spending three rounds to pinpoint an invisible creature while hoping that he doesn't move isn't a very efficient strategy, so IMHO there is still plenty of need for the See Invisibility spell (or better yet, glitterdust).

Is it possible to use a spell such as detect magic or detect
evil to detect an invisible foe?

Yes, but not very efficiently. Let’s say a character uses a
detect magic spell; the spell reveals nothing about the invisible
foe unless the character happens to aim the spell at the area
containing the invisible foe. If the foe is using an invisibility
spell, a spell-like invisibility power, or a supernatural
invisibility power, the detect magic spell merely reveals that
there is magic somewhere in the area. The detect magic caster
has no idea where the magical aura is, what sort of creature or
object bears the aura, or if the aura is in motion or not.

One round later, the detect magic user can search for magical
auras again. If the user aims the spell at the invisible foe again,
detect magic spell will reveal the number of magical auras on
the foe and the strength of the strongest aura. (The user has
scanned the same subject for 2 consecutive rounds.) The detect
magic user still has no idea exactly where the foe is, what the
foe is like, or whether the foe is moving.

After another round goes by, the detect magic user can scan
for magical auras once again. If the user is lucky enough to
catch the invisible foe for a third time, she will have scanned
the same subject for 3 consecutive rounds. The detect magic
spell now reveals the strength and location of each aura. The
detect magic user still does not “see” the foe and does not know
whether it’s moving or not. She only knows the strength and
locations of magical auras during her turn in the initiative
order. In this case a “location” is the 5-foot square that contains
the aura. If the creature or item bearing the aura takes up more
than one square, the detect magic user can get some idea of its
size. (See Big and Little Creatures in Combat in Chapter 8 of
the Player’s Handbook.) It is possible for the detect magic user
to attack the location of one of the auras the spell has revealed.
If the spell revealed auras in different locations, the detect
magic user still might not choose the right location to attack.
Even if she does, the foe has 100% concealment and the attack
has a 50% chance to miss no matter what the attack roll is.

Remember that all of the foregoing depends on the detect
magic spell user scanning the invisible foe for 3 consecutive
rounds. If the detect magic user guesses wrong about where to
scan even once, she’ll have to start the process of zeroing in on
the invisible foe all over again.