How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

[Jimlock]

Wow... there are so many wrong assessments and wrong readings in this thread, I don't even know how to begin....


Its funny how some... in order to counter the opinion that says that Detect Magic screws Illusions (because RAW, as they claim, has it all balanced already)... interpret Illusions and the sub schools however they please... (CLEARLY Houserule-interperetations) so as to prove that DM is not that potent on Illusions...

I really do not get how some of you support that detecting an Illusion is "no big deal" and that Illusions don't get screwed by just that. Permit me to quote something here:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Moreover, the text continues in the PHB (p173) :

....A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
For example, a character making a successful saving throw against a figment of an illusionary section of floor knows the "floor" isn't safe to walk on and can see what lies bellow (light permitting), but he or she can still note where the figment lies.

The way I see it, that screws Illusions A LOT. You see figments and phantasms for what they really are.

What does that have to do with Detect Magic?

Let's quote again:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)
Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

Detecting an Illusion is CLEARLY a way of interacting with the illusion in some fashion. You see it, and you study it carefully once you've found the aura. End of story. Any other interpretation is a house rule.

No matter if the DM gives you a save, No matter if you fail the save.... you still know there is an illusion there so.... what do you do?

You throw a damn peddle at the illusion... or you poke it with a stick.... GAME OVER.

That's how a 0 level spell with 0% miss chance trumps a 6th level Permanent Image, a 6th level Programmed Image, a 5th level Mirage Arcana, a 4th level Illusory Wall, a 4th level Hallucinatory Terrain.... and so on...

and I repeat , with 0% chances of failing! All you to do is detect it and then throw a damn pebble at it and that's that.



I read another argument I did not get at ALL!!!

Arguments that say that by combining: Magic Aura, Nondetection and Misdirection you can get a satisfying result.
First off, Misdirection can only be cast on oneself (you target another creature or object in order to get their aura on YOU - Target: One creature or object, up to a 10-ft. cube in size). Moreover an "illusion" (Silent Image) is not an object. So any ideas of using such methods on the "Image line" (Silent Image... etc etc) are clearly house rules.
Now to answer to the argument:

I honestly do not understand how: By having to spend/cast MORE SPELLS (the original Illusion spell + Nondetection + Magic Aura + Misdirection + whatever have you.....) so as to NOT be detected by a cantrip proves that Detect Magic is NOT broken....

??????


That logic beats me!!!

...sure... you can try to find a way around detect magic with a multitude of spells.... but ...but.... you got to spend a bunch of middle to high level spells...
in order to beat a Cantrip!!!! (and I insist, that even then, you never get to beat it completely... you simply get better chances against it!!!).

How is that GOOD game design? It isn't. It's Completely unbalanced.


ANOTHER argument I completely disagree with.

A lot have said: "One should use Illusions smartly!!! He should be clever so as to out smart the detectors...!!!!"

Ok.... So the 11th level Wizard who casts a 6th level Illusion spell... has to be smart about it...in order to hide it (as if the level of his magic is not enough..) while the 1st level PC can be as stupid as hell, because all he need is this 0 level spell...this damn cantrip... so as to get past the secret entrance created by the powerful wizard....??????

Does this really make sense to you?? Really????? shouldn't things be the other way around instead?

Shouldn't the 1st level PC prove his worth by outsmarting the powerful wizard?.... by using his wits so as to detect the Illusion????


I will repeat one thing again:

The Illusion is powerful only when it is not detected for what it is.
Once you detect it for what it is, it's power is GONE!.

I'm sorry, but I haven't read any arguments yet that could even tempt me in changing my mind.

I like the rules too... In general they are more than OK. But that doesn't mean they are perfect...
The holes are plenty and:

(one 0 level spell) VS (An entire school of magic)
Detect Magic VS Illusion
(+Arcane Sight)



...is a big hole... and it certainly needs fixing.

 

[Jack Simth]

The way I see it, that screws Illusions A LOT. You see figments and phantasms for what they really are.

If you succeed on the save, sure. But that applies to a lot of magic.

Detecting an Illusion is CLEARLY a way of interacting with the illusion in some fashion. You see it, and you study it carefully once you've found the aura. End of story. Any other interpretation is a house rule.

Yes, so it permits you to roll your Will save. Is Enchantment screwed over because people get a will save Vs. Charm, Suggestion, Dominate, et all? How is this a problem, really?

No matter if the DM gives you a save, No matter if you fail the save.... you still know there is an illusion there so.... what do you do?

You throw a damn peddle at the illusion... or you poke it with a stick.... GAME OVER.

Not really.

I use Magic Aura on an object. It now has an aura of illusion for the next several days. If I'm a high enough level caster that Permanent Image is viable, then I've got a caster level of at least 11. If I Extend Magic Aura, it lasts 22 days.

I now proceed to cast an Extended Magic Aura on every other item in the dungeon. It lasts 22 days, so if I use, say, four 2nd level spells per day on maintaining this, by the time my 22 day limit rolls around and the number of affected item caps, I've got 88 false magical auras in the dungeon. If I want to be funny, I also use Illusory Wall on real walls to make them look exactly like they already do. That one's Permanent, incidentally, so I can stack it up as many castings as I have time to place. If I'm high enough level, I also put in a few headache-inducing ones: Greater Shadow Conjouration(Wall of Stone) and Greater Shadow Conjouration(Wall of Iron) - both Instant illusions that are partially real (and natively have no aura after they're done).

How many castings of Detect Magic do you think the guy going through my dungeon will have prepared? How many of those pebbles will make a sound to alert the occasional real creature in the dungeon that someone's coming?

Now, I also put in some "regular" illusions - Illusory Walls over doors, for instance. You throw a pebble, it bounces off the "wall" (which is really a door). OK, you've got your interaction will save, sure. But you don't have absolute proof that what you're looking at is an illusion sufficient to auto-spot the door. Especially after having run into quite a few false illusory auras where poking it does exactly nothing, and your pebble did bounce off.

Or maybe I put in a couple of traps for you doing exactly that; I bury a few creatures behind illusory walls. When the pebble goes sailing through the wall, the creature on the other side notes it's an illusion, sees through it, and goes and attacks the party. Or the wall that's covered in illusion is a touch-sensitive trap that sets off an area effect sufficient to cover the entire area for which you've got line-of-effect to throw the pebble at the wall (AKA, a Lightning Bolt down that hallway). Or maybe I include a few traps that go off if there are Divinations active in the area. Or maybe I scatter a couple of trapped pebbles around (stones of weight, maybe), and use Magic Aura so they don't show up as trapped. You pick up the pebble, throw it, and find it's still in your hand.

You haven't negated the school of magic, you've just used some resources of your own to increase the resource cost needed to make effective use of the school. And in the doing, you've made your behavior predictable, which is a great way to let someone who is accustomed to playing that game of chess hurt you.

That's how a 0 level spell with 0% miss chance trumps a 6th level Permanent Image, a 6th level Programmed Image, a 5th level Mirage Arcana, a 4th level Illusory Wall, a 4th level Hallucinatory Terrain.... and so on...

and I repeat , with 0% chances of failing! All you to do is detect it and then throw a damn pebble at it and that's that.

No, it's not.

I read another argument I did not get at ALL!!!

Then you should probably re-read it, and attempt to address the spelled-out method point by point, like I've been doing with your posts so far. Perhaps also ask questions on the aspects that you don't get.

Arguments that say that by combining: Magic Aura, Nondetection and Misdirection you can get a satisfying result.
First off, Misdirection can only be cast on oneself (you target another creature or object in order to get their aura on YOU - Target: One creature or object, up to a 10-ft. cube in size).

You may wish to read the text of the spell, rather than just the target line. It's in the SRD, so I'll post it here for convenience, and explain a bit:

By means of this spell, you misdirect the information from divination spells that reveal auras (detect evil, detect magic, discern lies, and the like). On casting the spell, you choose another object within range. For the duration of the spell, the subject of misdirection is detected as if it were the other object. (Neither the subject nor the other object gets a saving throw against this effect.) Detection spells provide information based on the second object rather than on the actual target of the detection unless the caster of the detection succeeds on a Will save. For instance, you could make yourself detect as a tree if one were within range at casting: not evil, not lying, not magical, neutral in alignment, and so forth. This spell does not affect other types of divination magic (augury, detect thoughts, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and the like).

(Emphasis and Emphasis added)

Underlined portions are references to the secondary target. Bolded portions are references to the primary target. It's really quite clear that Misdirection is effectively a two-target spell; the primary to whom the effect applies, and a secondary from which the data presented to Divinations is gathered.

Moreover an "illusion" (Silent Image) is not an object. So any ideas of using such methods on the "Image line" (Silent Image... etc etc) are clearly house rules.

You give surface appearance of misunderstanding the method of using that type of thing to negate using Detect Magic and stuff that inherits from it for detecting illusions:

You give real critters an illusory aura, so that when something carries an aura of illusion, you gain no useful information from

Now to answer to the argument:

I honestly do not understand how: By having to spend/cast MORE SPELLS (the original Illusion spell + Nondetection + Magic Aura + Misdirection + whatever have you.....) so as to NOT be detected by a cantrip proves that Detect Magic is NOT broken....

??????


That logic beats me!!!

...sure... you can try to find a way around detect magic with a multitude of spells.... but ...but.... you got to spend a bunch of middle to high level spells...
in order to beat a Cantrip!!!! (and I insist, that even then, you never get to beat it completely... you simply get better chances against it!!!).

It's a game of chess. Detect Magic is a resource expenditure (in terms of spell slots, feats, class features, XP, or whatever else you used to get it, plus the time needed to use it). Yes, to counter one resource expenditure, you need to expend resources.

How does this not make sense?

Oh yes, and most of the methods used to beat Detect Magic? They last a very long time (hours or days, and they're Permanent in some cases), and don't take any further resource expenditure for the duration. Detect Magic lasts minutes/level, and you need to concentrate to make use of it.

The single most valuable resource in a conflict in D&D? It's not spell slots. It's combat actions.

How is that GOOD game design? It isn't. It's Completely unbalanced.

D&D is full of a lot of unbalanced things. This... doesn't really hold much of a candle to quite a bit of unbalanced things.

ANOTHER argument I completely disagree with.

A lot have said: "One should use Illusions smartly!!! He should be clever so as to out smart the detectors...!!!!"

Ok.... So the 11th level Wizard who casts a 6th level Illusion spell... has to be smart about it...in order to hide it (as if the level of his magic is not enough..) while the 1st level PC can be as stupid as hell, because all he need is this 0 level spell...this damn cantrip... so as to get past the secret entrance created by the powerful wizard....??????

That only helps him find it... if he's looking in the right spot already... and if the Wizard was foolish enough to use a method of hiding that is automatically revealed by a probing search.

A better way would be to hide the entrance halfway up a mountainside cover it with Illusory Wall, and make use of the Fly spell (or better: Overland Flight) whenever you need to get in or out. Or even better: Wall of Stone to cover it, and use Dimension Door to get in and out.

Does this really make sense to you?? Really????? shouldn't things be the other way around instead?

Considering the level of wit you're attributing to the 'powerful wizard', yes, yes, no.

Shouldn't the 1st level PC prove his worth by outsmarting the powerful wizard?.... by using his wits so as to detect the Illusion????


I will repeat one thing again:

The Illusion is powerful only when it is not detected for what it is.
Once you detect it for what it is, it's power is GONE!.

I'm sorry, but I haven't read any arguments yet that could even tempt me in changing my mind.

I like the rules too... In general they are more than OK. But that doesn't mean they are perfect...
The holes are plenty and:

(one 0 level spell) VS (An entire school of magic)
Detect Magic VS Illusion
(+Arcane Sight)



...is a big hole... and it certainly needs fixing.

No, not really.

Oh, and would you kindly try actually addressing things point-by-point, cut down on the heavy use of punctuation (especially the ???? and !!!!), and stop putting things in ALL CAPS and BIG FONT? It's getting a tad on the annoying side, and I'm seriously considering stopping bothering responding to you on that basis.

 

[Tovec]

screw illusions. Are you really trying to say anti-caster stuff is overpowered in 3.5???

No.
They are saying (or not saying) a 0 level spell is overpowered when used as an anti-illusionist spell.

Wow... there are so many wrong assessments and wrong readings in this thread, I don't even know how to begin....


Its funny how some... in order to counter the opinion that says that Detect Magic screws Illusions (because RAW, as they claim, has it all balanced already)... interpret Illusions and the sub schools however they please... (CLEARLY Houserule-interperetations) so as to prove that DM is not that potent on Illusions...

I really do not get how some of you support that detecting an Illusion is "no big deal" and that Illusions don't get screwed by just that. Permit me to quote something here:



Moreover, the text continues in the PHB (p173) :




The way I see it, that screws Illusions A LOT. You see figments and phantasms for what they really are.

What does that have to do with Detect Magic?

Let's quote again:



Detecting an Illusion is CLEARLY a way of interacting with the illusion in some fashion. You see it, and you study it carefully once you've found the aura. End of story. Any other interpretation is a house rule.

No matter if the DM gives you a save, No matter if you fail the save.... you still know there is an illusion there so.... what do you do?

You throw a damn peddle at the illusion... or you poke it with a stick.... GAME OVER.

That's how a 0 level spell with 0% miss chance trumps a 6th level Permanent Image, a 6th level Programmed Image, a 5th level Mirage Arcana, a 4th level Illusory Wall, a 4th level Hallucinatory Terrain.... and so on...

and I repeat , with 0% chances of failing! All you to do is detect it and then throw a damn pebble at it and that's that.



I read another argument I did not get at ALL!!!

Arguments that say that by combining: Magic Aura, Nondetection and Misdirection you can get a satisfying result.
First off, Misdirection can only be cast on oneself (you target another creature or object in order to get their aura on YOU - Target: One creature or object, up to a 10-ft. cube in size). Moreover an "illusion" (Silent Image) is not an object. So any ideas of using such methods on the "Image line" (Silent Image... etc etc) are clearly house rules.
Now to answer to the argument:

I honestly do not understand how: By having to spend/cast MORE SPELLS (the original Illusion spell + Nondetection + Magic Aura + Misdirection + whatever have you.....) so as to NOT be detected by a cantrip proves that Detect Magic is NOT broken....

??????


That logic beats me!!!

...sure... you can try to find a way around detect magic with a multitude of spells.... but ...but.... you got to spend a bunch of middle to high level spells...
in order to beat a Cantrip!!!! (and I insist, that even then, you never get to beat it completely... you simply get better chances against it!!!).

How is that GOOD game design? It isn't. It's Completely unbalanced.


ANOTHER argument I completely disagree with.

A lot have said: "One should use Illusions smartly!!! He should be clever so as to out smart the detectors...!!!!"

Ok.... So the 11th level Wizard who casts a 6th level Illusion spell... has to be smart about it...in order to hide it (as if the level of his magic is not enough..) while the 1st level PC can be as stupid as hell, because all he need is this 0 level spell...this damn cantrip... so as to get past the secret entrance created by the powerful wizard....??????

Does this really make sense to you?? Really????? shouldn't things be the other way around instead?

Shouldn't the 1st level PC prove his worth by outsmarting the powerful wizard?.... by using his wits so as to detect the Illusion????


I will repeat one thing again:

The Illusion is powerful only when it is not detected for what it is.
Once you detect it for what it is, it's power is GONE!.

I'm sorry, but I haven't read any arguments yet that could even tempt me in changing my mind.

I like the rules too... In general they are more than OK. But that doesn't mean they are perfect...
The holes are plenty and:

(one 0 level spell) VS (An entire school of magic)
Detect Magic VS Illusion
(+Arcane Sight)



...is a big hole... and it certainly needs fixing.

Okay, let me break this into parts, even knowing what I'm saying may be partially wrong. Using detect magic requires the following, taken directly from the PHB not the SRD, in order to defeat illusions.

1) Detect Magic lasts as long as you concentrate to a maximum of 1min/level. This means that you have to using the spell, every round or else it dispels. How many is the wizard preparing a day? The wizard is also going to go as slowly as the rogue is checking every 10 feet for traps. Slower still if he FINDS a spell.

2) It is a 60 foot cone. Anything outside of where he directly looking isn't seen. If he isn't TRYING to look at that illusory floor he'll fall right through it while battling the illusory dragon.

3) If he finds a spell in his vision then he has to spend the first round realizing it is magic. He then spends the next round finding out HOW MANY auras. He spends his third round finding each aura and then using a spellcraft check (which he may fail) DC 15 + spell level. More still he only gets that it is an illusion.

3b) Granted higher level casters will make this without fail. Those same higher level casters will have true seeing, see invisibility and arcane sight.

3c) Lower level casters may not make the spellcraft DC (especially against higher level spells) and won't know its an illusion anymore than if they were conjurations.

4) What type of illusion? Phantasm or Figment? Safe or deadly.

5) Yes, that square has an illusion. Is it a modified appearance, an invisible person with an illusory double, a fake dragon, a concealed floor, etc. Detect Magic doesn't tell you.

6) There is nothing in Detect Magic which says it "interacts" with illusions (giving them an autosave). There is nothing that says the +4 bonus that people appear willing to give it either. I'd take the +4 while you can.

6b) It seems clear to me that this would have been fixed after several versions of the game. At least it should have come up in the years since 3e
was released enough to get a line in the Pathfinder rules (in this circumstance PF is 3.75).

7) While the wizard is using detect magic he can't do other things.

 

[Jimlock]

If you succeed on the save, sure. But that applies to a lot of magic. Yes, so it permits you to roll your Will save.

What you are obviously missing, is the fact that THE WILL SAVE IS POINTLESS It makes no difference whatsoever. Any player with an intelligence of 2 will throw something at the illusion, touch the illusion, probe it with a stick... once he has already detected it as an illusion. It's common sense really. I've yet to see a player who has detected an illusion and somehow still missed solving the puzzle. Knowing it's an illusion means you are 99% there... the other 1% requires nothing more than an infants intelligence.

Not really.
I use Magic Aura on an object. It now has an aura of illusion for the next several days. If I'm a high enough level caster that Permanent Image is viable, then I've got a caster level of at least 11. If I Extend Magic Aura, it lasts 22 days.

OK... lets see what you 've got so far --->

Permanent Image: 6th level spell
"Extended" Magic Aura: 1+1= 2nd level spell....

Up until now, we have a 6th level spell and a 2nd level spell at work... so as to face a mighty 0 level cantrip.... wow....

I now proceed to cast an Extended Magic Aura on every other item in the dungeon. It lasts 22 days, so if I use, say, four 2nd level spells per day on maintaining this, by the time my 22 day limit rolls around and the number of affected item caps, I've got 88 false magical auras in the dungeon. If I want to be funny, I also use Illusory Wall on real walls to make them look exactly like they already do. That one's Permanent, incidentally, so I can stack it up as many castings as I have time to place. If I'm high enough level, I also put in a few headache-inducing ones: Greater Shadow Conjouration(Wall of Stone) and Greater Shadow Conjouration(Wall of Iron) - both Instant illusions that are partially real (and natively have no aura after they're done).

Jack... what you are suggesting is insane.... Listen to what you are saying!!

You are actually suggesting that a powerful wizard, in order to protect himself with his high level Illusions (4th - 5th -6th -7th level) from a 0 level cantrip, he has to expend all his 2nd level spells on a daily basis!!!! I mean not only can't he face the 0 level spell with those powerful spells as the are (levels from 4th to 7th) but he ALSO has to lose all 2nd level spells!!!!!

I'm not sure if you understand it... but your very arguments work against you.

Oh... and one more thing... MAGIC AURA CANNOT BE USED WITH PERMANENT IMAGE, OR WITH ANY ANY OTHER "IMAGE" SPELL (SILENT, MINOR, MAJOR, PERSISTENT, PROGRAMMED) , OR WITH ILLUSORY WALL, OR WITH HALLUCINATORY TERRAIN, OR WITH MIRAGE ARCANA.

I know you hate my fonts and letter size, but you insist on something CLEARLY wrong, and you better realize it now before you write another post based on the same false assumptions. Proof?...

Here you go:

Magic Aura
Illusion (Glamer)
Target: One touched object weighing up to 5 lb./level

The above mentioned illusions, are CLEARLY not objects, nor are they cast on objects... they are simply cast in space without target. NOTHING can change their auras.

as for...

You give surface appearance of misunderstanding the method of using that type of thing to negate using Detect Magic and stuff that inherits from it for detecting illusions:

You give real critters an illusory aura, so that when something carries an aura of illusion, you gain no useful information from

.

Don't worry, I got it. Thing is you keep on hinting how Magic Aura can save the day, and you keep on mentioning Magic Aura alongside with Figment spells.

No matter how many illusion auras you manage to put on actual things (a costly process in and on itself), figments will always register as illusions, no matter what you do, and PCs will always try to find what they are. ALWAYS. Even if they 've run into illusion-like traps in the past they will still examine things.

How many castings of Detect Magic do you think the guy going through my dungeon will have prepared?

Now that it's CLEAR that your 88.000 Magic Aura's are worthless because they CANNOT be used with your Figments, lets see how many castings of Detect Magic the intruder(s) will have?

....Including scrolls?... or... wands?.... I know any sane player/caster has a few detect magic scrolls on him. They are extra cheap and easy to get.

or... the possibility of a permanent Detect Magic? I'm sure that we can allow the intruder a single 5th level spell... when he's dealing with a wizard who can cast spells up to 7th level.... right?

...please... Detect magic is one minute per level. 10th CL X 3 = half an hour. In half an hour the intruder would have swiped the dungeon clean.

How many of those pebbles will make a sound to alert the occasional real creature in the dungeon that someone's coming?

Ohhh... come on Jack!!! I can throw flour at the damn thing! I can throw sand!! I can go ahead and touch it... barehanded or with a stick!!!! ....I can think of a 1000 ways of checking out the illusion without making a sound... do you really want me to spell them out for you?

Now, I also put in some "regular" illusions - Illusory Walls over doors, for instance. You throw a pebble, it bounces off the "wall" (which is really a door).

Not so.

First, different sound (quite easy to figure out).

Second, any other dust like ingredient would work just fine. Poking it with a stick or barehanded gets the job done without a sweat as well.

Third, no door is aligned with its adjacent walls. In most cases the peddle would disappear before hitting the door. Someone who's got his eyes fixed on the peddle (because he wants to see how the peddle reacts to the surface), will easily notice any such weird incident.

OK, you've got your interaction will save, sure. But you don't have absolute proof that what you're looking at is an illusion sufficient to auto-spot the door.

Not really, any of the above methods will prove that the wall is not real, and then I can instantly see the door behind the translucent figment.

See my previous post on how this happens by RAW.


....But all this discussion is pointless...
it really is..
because you are wasting resources, powerful spells... you are throwing everything you've got so as to counter a single cantrip.

You are even creating traps/illusions (again through heavy spellcasting) so as to counter Detect Magic attempts ONLY....
....and you never really get the job done... because once "something" is detected, people are gonna get interested in it... and sooner or later they will get to it, no matter how layers you put one on top of the other. And again... those layers cost time, spells and probably money... while detect magic costs nothing.


PCs should be smart and come up with intelligent ways of revealing illusions in a dungeon... they shouldn't simply detect them. To me there is nothing fun or interesting in that.

You haven't negated the school of magic, you've just used some resources of your own to increase the resource cost needed to make effective use of the school. And in the doing, you've made your behavior predictable, which is a great way to let someone who is accustomed to playing that game of chess hurt you.

As mentioned countless times above the analogy is SO bad. The Illusionist has to spent A LOT (of spells...money..time) in order to make his illusions effective against a PC using the cantrip.

Meta game DMing? Really?

Wow... nice touch. Nice way to prove Detect Magic is not broken.

You may wish to read the text of the spell, rather than just the target line. It's in the SRD, so I'll post it here for convenience, and explain a bit:
(Emphasis and Emphasis added)

Underlined portions are references to the secondary target. Bolded portions are references to the primary target. It's really quite clear that Misdirection is effectively a two-target spell; the primary to whom the effect applies, and a secondary from which the data presented to Divinations is gathered.

I finally agree with this, although one could make a case that the subject is always the caster and that he casts it on one creature or object so as to get its aura...

But the spell is much more fun with your reading... (probably the correct one, I admit)




You talk about chess... and more chess.... and more chess...

IMHO, what you don't realize is that the only one who has to play the chess is the illusionist.

The detector, does not not even know the basics of chess. He simply casts Detect Magic... or has it permanently on him for his convenience...

 

[Jack Simth]

What you are obviously missing, is the fact that THE WILL SAVE IS POINTLESS It makes no difference whatsoever. Any player with an intelligence of 2 will throw something at the illusion, touch the illusion, probe it with a stick... once he has already detected it as an illusion. It's common sense really. I've yet to see a player who has detected an illusion and somehow still missed solving the puzzle. Knowing it's an illusion means you are 99% there... the other 1% requires nothing more than an infants intelligence.

Yes, anyone will.

Which is a great way to make monkey-traps designed specifically for no other purpose than to get people to touch trap triggers.

Which, really, is the way to go with traps. Any trap in an occupied area, realistically, needs a simple way to get past it for the people who occupy the area. Whether that's a trap that won't hurt them (fire subtype critters with fire-based traps, undead and negative energy traps, cold subtype critters and cold traps, attuned Symbol spells, properly aligned Forbiddance zones, et cetera), a simple way to bypass it (a key, password, et cetera), or knowing what to ignore (which door to not try and open, where the illusion is located, and so on). Without one of those (or perhaps something similar), the occupants will fall for them, and get killed.

OK... lets see what you 've got so far --->

Permanent Image: 6th level spell
"Extended" Magic Aura: 1+1= 2nd level spell....

Up until now, we have a 6th level spell and a 2nd level spell at work... so as to face a mighty 0 level cantrip.... wow....

1) Defense is harder than offense in general; this holds true in D&D as well. A (Greater) Dispel Magic + Quickened Suggestion (possibly via Rod) is hard to defend against, for instance, and can very easily take down the Fighter who was depending on that Third Eye Conceal so that he wouldn't need to make Will saves vs. Murdering the party.

2) In a dungeon, sure. But then, consider: Have you ever stopped and calculated the costs of all those traps, all those doors, the walls, the tunnels, and all that treasure in a dungeon? Seriously; try it sometime. The Stronghold Builder's Guide is 3.0, but it'll get you started. A modern tank costs several hundred thousand to build. A tank-busting missile costs several thousand to build. You do the math.

3) That was specific to a dungeon. In a city, I don't need to worry about it - just my own illusion auras, which go away with one casting of Misdirection (or possibly Nondetection), which lasts pretty much all day. If you're depending on Detect Magic to locate the assassin coming in disguise to hurt the king? Well, I just Misdirect myself, and I no longer register as magic. I walk blithly on by your checkpoint, murder the king, and leave. Or maybe I giggle as I use the spell on someone important, so that they register as having an illusion aura... and you then interrogate them (or kill them, if you're not thinking sneaky) and now have the issue that you've ticked off someone important.

Jack... what you are suggesting is insane.... Listen to what you are saying!!

You are actually suggesting that a powerful wizard, in order to protect himself with his high level Illusions (4th - 5th -6th -7th level) from a 0 level cantrip, he has to expend all his 2nd level spells on a daily basis!!!! I mean not only can't he face the 0 level spell with those powerful spells as the are (levels from 4th to 7th) but he ALSO has to lose all 2nd level spells!!!!!

Stop and calculate dungeon resource costs some time. This is actually par for the course for building a dungeon.

And I can create a lot of meaningless illusion auras with assorted Permanent spells (Shadow Evocation(Continual Flame) is a favorite of mine, as is Phantom Trap and several others). You never exactly responded to the door scenario, after all.

I'm not sure if you understand it... but your very arguments work against you.

Not when you consider the expense of a dungeon in the first place, no.

Oh... and one more thing... MAGIC AURA CANNOT BE USED WITH PERMANENT IMAGE, OR WITH ANY ANY OTHER "IMAGE" SPELL (SILENT, MINOR, MAJOR, PERSISTENT, PROGRAMMED) , OR WITH ILLUSORY WALL, OR WITH HALLUCINATORY TERRAIN, OR WITH MIRAGE ARCANA.

I know you hate my fonts and letter size, but you insist on something CLEARLY wrong, and you better realize it now before you write another post based on the same false assumptions. Proof?...

Here you go:



The above mentioned illusions, are CLEARLY not objects, nor are they cast on objects... they are simply cast in space without target. NOTHING can change their auras.

I never said you could. Seriously. Look back through my posts. You don't make the aura on the real illusions go away. You add the aura to things that are real, so that knowing something has an aura of illusion doesn't actually help (it has an aura of illusion about it? OK... so have several real things you've run across. How is knowing it's got an aura of illusion on it proof that it's not real?).

as for...
.

Don't worry, I got it. Thing is you keep on hinting how Magic Aura can save the day, and you keep on mentioning Magic Aura alongside with Figment spells.

No matter how many illusion auras you manage to put on actual things (a costly process in and on itself), figments will always register as illusions, no matter what you do, and PCs will always try to find what they are. ALWAYS. Even if they 've run into illusion-like traps in the past they will still examine things.

Oh, yes. The other half of that is to cause time issues for them. In the middle of a fight, if you can't immediately tell which golem is real and which isn't (as they both look the same under detect magic), which way do you run? If you spend several rounds concentrating, then throw a pebble at one, you've already let the beast walk up to you and found out which one's real because it hit you. This is the other reason for mixing with creatures.

Illusions are used in conjunction with real stuff, not in isolation.

Now that it's CLEAR that your 88.000 Magic Aura's are worthless because they CANNOT be used with your Figments, lets see how many castings of Detect Magic the intruder(s) will have?

Ah... I never said you use them on figments. You put them on real stuff. In such a way as to get the intruders in trouble.

Sure, you do the Illusory wall over a pit. Repeatedly; it's fun and cheap.

You also do Phantom Trap on locks. Repeatedly; it's fun and cheap.

But you also incorporate real traps with illusory auras on locks (Like, say, Phantasmal Killer). You also make a few real traps look illusory via Magic Aura. You also make a few locks with Phantom Traps look nonmagical. You also have a few regular spell traps with Magic Aura to make them look nonmagical or illusory.

The rogue says doors 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are trapped.

Detect Magic says doors 2, 4, 6, and 8 have illusory auras.

Which door do you pick when the golem starts charging you?

....Including scrolls?... or... wands?.... I know any sane player/caster has a few detect magic scrolls on him. They are extra cheap and easy to get.

or... the possibility of a permanent Detect Magic? I'm sure that we can allow the intruder a single 5th level spell... when he's dealing with a wizard who can cast spells up to 7th level.... right?

...please... Detect magic is one minute per level. 10th CL X 3 = half an hour. In half an hour the intruder would have swiped the dungeon clean.

You're forgetting: Continuous concentration. To get by with three castings, the wizard has to not be doing anything else (or sinking more resources... like that 500 xp... or one of a number of feats). Oh, hey. You're spending more resources than just a cantrip....

Ohhh... come on Jack!!! I can throw flour at the damn thing! I can throw sand!! I can go ahead and touch it... barehanded or with a stick!!!! ....I can think of a 1000 ways of checking out the illusion without making a sound... do you really want me to spell them out for you?

And when you touch some of them, they blow up in your face, and set off alarms for the real critters to come.

You keep treating these things like they're in complete isolation....

Not so.

First, different sound (quite easy to figure out).

D&D includes lots of door materials - including stone. You can't rely on being able to tell from sound alone.

Second, any other dust like ingredient would work just fine. Poking it with a stick or barehanded gets the job done without a sweat as well.

Remember what I said about traps buried under illusions?

Third, no door is aligned with its adjacent walls. In most cases the peddle would disappear before hitting the door. Someone who's got his eyes fixed on the peddle (because he wants to see how the peddle reacts to the surface), will easily notice any such weird incident.

Have you ever run across a secret door? They exist in D&D. If they were noticeably off from the wall, why would you need a search check?

Doors can be made flush with walls. It's not really all that difficult, even.

Not really, any of the above methods will prove that the wall is not real, and then I can instantly see the door behind the translucent figment.

They'll also get you killed.

See my previous post on how this happens by RAW.


....But all this discussion is pointless...
it really is..
because you are wasting resources, powerful spells... you are throwing everything you've got so as to counter a single cantrip.

You are even creating traps/illusions (again through heavy spellcasting) so as to counter Detect Magic attempts ONLY....
....and you never really get the job done... because once "something" is detected, people are gonna get interested in it... and sooner or later they will get to it, no matter how layers you put one on top of the other. And again... those layers cost time, spells and probably money... while detect magic costs nothing.

Again: Take a look at the cost of building a dungeon sometime. It's far, far more than the equipage of the heroes that raid it. Defense is much more expensive than offense. By a LOT. This is actually expected.

PCs should be smart and come up with intelligent ways of revealing illusions in a dungeon... they shouldn't simply detect them. To me there is nothing fun or interesting in that.

Well, you're discussing feelings, now, which are inarguable.

As mentioned countless times above the analogy is SO bad. The Illusionist has to spent A LOT (of spells...money..time) in order to make his illusions effective against a PC using the cantrip.

Yes. See comments about tanks vs. tank-busting missiles. That's expected, really.

Meta game DMing? Really?

All DM's metagame. It's part of the job.

Wow... nice touch. Nice way to prove Detect Magic is not broken.

I'm starting to get tired of the sarcasm.

I finally agree with this, although one could make a case that the subject is always the caster and that he casts it on one creature or object so as to get its aura...

Personal spells specify "you" in them. Read, oh, Overland Flight as an example:

This spell functions like a fly spell, except you can fly at a speed of 40 feet (30 feet if wearing medium or heavy armor, or if carrying a medium or heavy load) with average maneuverability. When using this spell for long-distance movement, you can hustle without taking nonlethal damage (a forced march still requires Constitution checks). This means you can cover 64 miles in an eight-hour period of flight (or 48 miles at a speed of 30 feet).

(emphasis added). Spells that can affect other people use the subject, the target, those within the area, or similar, instead.

But the spell is much more fun with your reading... (probably the correct one, I admit)




You talk about chess... and more chess.... and more chess...

IMHO, what you don't realize is that the only one who has to play the chess is the illusionist.

The detector, does not not even know the basics of chess. He simply casts Detect Magic... or has it permanently on him for his convenience...

At an expense of 500 xp... sure. Again: He's spent more resources, and defense is much harder than offense. This type of thing is expected.

Edit: Oh yes:
Pebbles are free.
If I throw a pebble at everything, I know whether or not it's an illusion immediately. I don't need Detect Magic at all. Are pebbles broken?

 

[Crothian]

Do Wizards just go around casting detect magic on everything? I can see that once you cast the spell you have a good chance of detecting a stationary illusion. Is this constant detect magic really a problem at people's games like those Paladins that Detect Evil on everything I hear about (but never actually see in happen)?

 

[Particle_Man]

As stated earlier, a more serious problem would be 2nd level Warlocks, who can detect magic at will without any expenditure of resources (except, I suppose, time). Kinda like playing chess but you get to instantly replace any pieces your opponent captures.

 

[Greenfield]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask the obvious question: Were in the rules does it say that any physical contact with an illusion, be it a poke or a pebble, dispels it?

I've known people who played this way, but I'm not familiar with any place in the rules where it actually says it.

In earlier editions it said that an illusion was dispelled if it failed to react appropriately to contact, but let's think about that: What's the appropriate reaction of a stone wall to being poked? It stands there like a stone wall. A statue? The same. A floor? A bridge? A table? The same. So an illusion of pretty much any inanimate object was immune to the poke test.

So I'm asking if there's an actual current rule on the subject that says you can literally hand-wave away illusions. I honestly don't know of one, but I could certainly be wrong.

 

[Vegepygmy]

So I'm asking if there's an actual current rule on the subject that says you can literally hand-wave away illusions. I honestly don't know of one, but I could certainly be wrong.

PHB, pages 173-174: "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion."

That's not exactly the same as what Jimlock is claiming the rule is, but most of the time there's no practical difference.

Do Wizards just go around casting detect magic on everything? I can see that once you cast the spell you have a good chance of detecting a stationary illusion. Is this constant detect magic really a problem at people's games like those Paladins that Detect Evil on everything I hear about (but never actually see in happen)?

I've never seen it happen.

 

[Greenfield]

I agree that if you fall through an illusory floor, you know it.

But that's a long way from "touch it and it's gone". Many Illusions specifically say that they have a tactile element. That is, they feel like something when you touch them. That means you can touch them without immediately knowing that they're illusions.

Under Major Image, it says, and I quote...

"The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately."

What's the appropriate reaction for a stone wall when touched or struck? It stands there like a stone wall. Poke at an illusion of a stone floor? Same thing. It isn't until you actually try walking on it that reality overrides the illusion and you go through.

Again, if there's some other rule that we've both missed in this, someone please point me at it.