How a ****ing cantrip exterminates an entire school of magic. NO MORE OF THAT!

[Dandu]

Careful now. Keep typing like that and you'll need another keyboard.

Is the analogy clear now?

Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell
Protection from Evil is a 1st level spell

OH MY GOD PROTECTION FROM EVIL IS BROKEN BROKEN BROKEN!!!one!

1)Detecting the presence of auras happens in the 1st round.
In A LOT of cases, knowing that there is magic somewhere in the cone is more than enough. Subsequent rounds is just a process that doesn't impede the investigation. No one is in SUCH a hurry when investigating a dungeons, a room, a castle etc etc... those two more rounds are not gonna make the difference.

So using a 0th level spell slot and a lot of time to defeat illusions is bad... but using a 10 ft pole, some pebbles, and listening for echos to detect illusory walls is... good?

Moreover, this little info you get on the first round can prove valuable even during combat, even against invisible enemies.

Wizard: I'm going to use my first round in combat to get a general idea of which direction the enemy is in instead of casting a spell to meaningfully affect the combat or use my snake/rat/bat familiar to smell/smell/blindsense for invisible opponents, or using a higher level spell that would do it in a much more efficient manner.
Fighter: I'm sorry, I'm supposed to be the dumb one in this party?

 

[Vegepygmy]

The issue appears to be that a level 0 spell can seriously interfere with many spells of significantly higher level, and that seems unballanced, therefore someone who cares about and enjoys the use of Iluusions spells is bothered by this.

Yes, that is the issue. Or rather, it's whether those things are true (or to what extent they're true).

A 0-level spell can (but is unlikely to) seriously interfere with many (or some, or maybe just a few) spells of significantly higher level (though what qualifies as "significantly" is totally subjective).

That seems unbalanced (to some, but doesn't bother others much at all).

Therefore, someone who cares about and enjoys the use of illusion spells (and thinks that the intelligent use of lower-level spells to defeat higher-level spells is "unbalanced" and problematic, even if it happens only rarely) is bothered by this.

Others who care about and enjoy the use of illusion spells (but don't share those other opinions) are not bothered by this, and have a difficult time seeing why the others are bothered by it.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Mind Blank is an 8th level spell, and still people complain about how it breaks the game in respect to enchantment.

Detect Magic is a 0 level spell and it still gets to break the game in respect to illusions.

Is the analogy clear now?

No. Perhaps if you used a larger font?

 

[Jimlock]

No. Perhaps if you used a larger font?

.

 

[Jimlock]

Therefore, someone who cares about and enjoys the use of illusion spells (and thinks that the intelligent use of lower-level spells to defeat higher-level spells is "unbalanced" and problematic, even if it happens only rarely) is bothered by this.

Intelligent use?

What do you mean?

All you have to do is cast detect magic and walk in...

Detect Magic has no intelligent use... it has one use and that is casting it and looking around.


....If on the other hand you are referring to the "timing" as intelligent use, I think it has already been addressed in this thread that a normal party with a couple of casters and a few scrolls can cover an entire day's needs without a problem....

...not to mention permanency......

 

[Jimlock]

Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell
Protection from Evil is a 1st level spell

OH MY GOD PROTECTION FROM EVIL IS BROKEN BROKEN BROKEN!!!one!

Hmm... I don't think that you could have found anything more irrelevant or out of context in respect to what I said... and to this discussion in general.. even if you had tried.

...but enjoy it if you must.

So using a 0th level spell slot and a lot of time to defeat illusions is bad... but using a 10 ft pole, some pebbles, and listening for echos to detect illusory walls is... good?

I think that this question/argument has been addressed already in this thread about 2 to 4 times... I think... Please go go back to those pages and find your answer.

 

[Dandu]

Hmm... I don't think that you could have found anything more irrelevant or out of context in respect to what I said... and to this discussion in general.. even if you had tried.

...but enjoy it if you must.

Allow me to rephrase it in a manner you may more easily comprehend: I find your paradigm to be flawed at a basic level.

I think that this question/argument has been addressed already in this thread about 2 to 4 times... I think... Please go go back to those pages and find your answer.

Would you kindly provide a summary as you have so eloquently done for me just now?

 

[Jimlock]

I find your paradigm to be flawed at a basic level.

And I find your objections flawed as well.

...So... it seems we disagree.

Won't be the first time, and probably not the last. No harm done.

 

[Shadow_Tickle]

I believe that the Detect Magic in Combat argument has been made in favour of it being unbroken.

For more long term illusions though let's consider two scenarios:

1) Illusion Spell on a Person: Let's say your in a high level strategy meeting of your country / church etc. You decide to cast detect magic and everyone lights up like a christmas tree. (They all have magical items, some even multiple.) Let's say you concentrate for a bit and you find out that one person has the aura of Illusion Magic on them. DISPEL MAGIC away. Oops...you just dispelled the illusion hiding the big ZIT on the Baron's face. He is very displeased or you just revealed the King's secret bodyguard to all and sundry. Another possibility is that you just revealed that your friend/mentor is actually a half-elf in an elven hating nation and you've just hampered the one man who might make your case to the rulers or you had to take a third look to realise that the general now has brown eyes instead of grey because he was a bit vain and liked that colour more (a fact that is well known among his friends/society)

As you said, there are lots of reasons to use illusion magic, revealing it's presence does not mean anything major over all.

2) In a building or dungeon, One thing I am puzzled with is that you said time is generally not an issue in your dungeons. Well then if time is not an issue then going very very slowly and carefully over every inch of a dungeon/building will get you through almost as well as detect magic. If time is an issue then detect magic is going to run out or be unfeasible for a fair bit of the time. (If your High-level enough to have permanent detect magic then your also high enough level for permanent versions of aura-concealing spells.)

 

[Jimlock]

I believe that the Detect Magic in Combat argument has been made in favour of it being unbroken.

For more long term illusions though let's consider two scenarios:

1) Illusion Spell on a Person: Let's say your in a high level strategy meeting of your country / church etc. You decide to cast detect magic and everyone lights up like a christmas tree. (They all have magical items, some even multiple.) Let's say you concentrate for a bit and you find out that one person has the aura of Illusion Magic on them. DISPEL MAGIC away. Oops...you just dispelled the illusion hiding the big ZIT on the Baron's face. He is very displeased or you just revealed the King's secret bodyguard to all and sundry. Another possibility is that you just revealed that your friend/mentor is actually a half-elf in an elven hating nation and you've just hampered the one man who might make your case to the rulers or you had to take a third look to realise that the general now has brown eyes instead of grey because he was a bit vain and liked that colour more (a fact that is well known among his friends/society)

As you said, there are lots of reasons to use illusion magic, revealing it's presence does not mean anything major over all.

Just because you provided two harmless examples, this does not mean that this stands for every case. In my experience, it is quite the opposite.

The detection of an Illusion could make the difference between the life and death of character, and can be decisive for even bigger things as well.

Think of espionage, think of hiding inside an illusion so as evade a stronger opponent... honestly... examples where the exposure of illusion magic can prove fatal and destructive are endless, and it all depends on what ends and means the magic was initially used for.

2) In a building or dungeon, One thing I am puzzled with is that you said time is generally not an issue in your dungeons. Well then if time is not an issue then going very very slowly and carefully over every inch of a dungeon/building will get you through almost as well as detect magic. If time is an issue then detect magic is going to run out or be unfeasible for a fair bit of the time. (If your High-level enough to have permanent detect magic then your also high enough level for permanent versions of aura-concealing spells.)

Honestly, can't you see the difference between walking + looking around (detect magic), AND searching (skill), touching surfaces, throwing pebbles etc etc...?