D&D General How Do You Feel About Randomness?

[EzekielRaiden]

“The dice said X” isn’t really what’s happening. Valuables have specific value ranges depending on their type and rarity, so a Jasper is worth 50gp on average, in a very real sense. That’s something a very analytical player who played with me for long enough might even be able to deduce. But, for most players, when their character attempts to appraise it, they might determine some value range between 20 and 80, which is ultimately an approximation of its actual value. Then, when the PCs decide to sell or trade it, an NPC might offer anywhere within the 20 to 80 range, and the PCs might be able to argue higher. Dice are involved in making these determinations, but so is my judgment as the architect of the subsystem, the rules for gems in the DMG as they determined the true average values of these items, and so are the players’ build choices, as their ability modifiers and proficiencies affect their odds of success when trying to haggle.

I mean, the players don’t see the dice I’m rolling when they appraise and trade valuables. They might notice that I am rolling something behind the screen, and a superstitious player might make the assumption that a price they think is low was the result of a low roll. If such a player feels cheated in that instance, I expect that player probably feels cheated a lot when playing D&D. They might enjoy a diceless RPG more.

Given there's going to be an appraisal regardless, and thus varying offers, would it not be simpler to just state a rough value range (e.g. "thirty to seventy, give or take") and then invoke the dice only when an actual offer is being made? If tying it to skills is of importance, perhaps make use of passive checks to narrow the expected range, e.g. for someone with a total bonus of -1 they'd have nearly no idea what it's worth, while someone with a high modifier and relevant additional stuff could get very close--perhaps within +/- 10 of the real value?

It just seems like this is rather laborious (multiple dice rolls for every discovered gem upon discovery, and with every effort to actually sell it). I get that it captures something you're happy with, so obviously more power to you, but it'd drive me crazy having to do that half a dozen times for even a moderate-sized haul.

 

[Charlaquin]

Given there's going to be an appraisal regardless, and thus varying offers, would it not be simpler to just state a rough value range (e.g. "thirty to seventy, give or take") and then invoke the dice only when an actual offer is being made? If tying it to skills is of importance, perhaps make use of passive checks to narrow the expected range, e.g. for someone with a total bonus of -1 they'd have nearly no idea what it's worth, while someone with a high modifier and relevant additional stuff could get very close--perhaps within +/- 10 of the real value?

It would absolutely be simpler, but it would also be less dynamic. The possibility of evaluating 5 Uncommon gems and getting “20 to 30” for one of them, “50 to 80” for another, “about 40” for another, “60 to 70” for another, and “you can’t tell” for another helps maintain the sense that there’s a broad range of potential values. If I just said “between 20 and 80” every time, it would be more transparent that they’re all just abstract units of value worth an average of 50gp instead of Jaspers, Moonstones, Quartzes, Zircons, and Carneleans. Plus, it creates more potential for discrepancy between the player’s initial appraisal and the actual offer they get for it, which in turn creates more potential for those feelings of “we got a great deal on that one” or “what a cheapskate” I brought up in the other post. All that is well worth rolling 2d4 a handful of times to me. That said, if another DM wanted to use a similar system but didn’t want to roll as many dice, they certainly could just name any price range within the 20-80gp bounds without rolling for it and it would still work fine.

It just seems like this is rather laborious (multiple dice rolls for every discovered gem upon discovery, and with every effort to actually sell it).

Well, personally, I don’t see rolling dice as particularly laborious. It takes a pretty minuscule amount of effort, really. Also, I should probably clarify that I don’t have like, a roster of potential buyers and roll a separate price for each of them or anything like that. When the players go into town and try to sell something, I’ll abstract the process of shopping it around and roll once to determine they highest offer the PCs were able to find in that particular town on that particular day. If they want to try to haggle with the buyer and succeed in a Charisma check, I’ll roll again and if the result is higher, they’re willing to go up to the new price; otherwise they either can’t or won’t pay more than their initial offer (essentially like advantage on the price roll). If the PC fails the check, the initial offer stands, or if they fail by 5 or more, the buyer will take offense and refuse to deal with the PCs further, so I roll a new price and decrease the new highest offer to the result if it’s lower, or keep the same highest offer otherwise (essentially disadvantage on the price roll).

I get that it captures something you're happy with, so obviously more power to you, but it'd drive me crazy having to do that half a dozen times for even a moderate-sized haul.

Yeah, this method definitely wouldn’t be for everyone.

 

[ezo]

Success or failure is rarely a foregone conclusion.

I disagree with this for most of 5E anyway. Since typically success is about 65%, and often higher due to advantage or additional bonuses, success is fairly foregone IME.

But, I know what you mean. (Not arguing that, just my experiences.)

So, how do you feel about the various kinds of randomness in D&D? What do you use, and what do you reject? Do you think differently about it based on which version of the game you are playing, or what kind of campaign you are playing within a specific edition? If you are a GM, do you use random encounters, random hex or dungeon generation, or things like reactions and morale?

All in all, I am for randomness in pretty much every aspect of the game as both DM and player. Unfortunately, most players don't feel the same and few DMs allow randomness to go as far as I do.

If I had my way:
Roll for race
Roll for sex (whatever), height, weight, age, birth order and siblings if desired
Roll for ability scores, in ORDER
- If your scores average less than 12, you can roll again
Roll for background
Choose class
Roll for hit points
Roll for starting gold
Roll for spells known / in spellbook

Roll for random encounters
Roll for encounter reactions (including planned encounters)
Roll for morale during combat
Roll for treasure generation (anything goes!)
Roll for random dungeon/terrain if map unavailable

Any edition, I run it the same. But, as I said, when it comes to PC generation, players aren't as much fun as I wish they were.

 

[payn]

I disagree with this for most of 5E anyway. Since typically success is about 65%, and often higher due to advantage or additional bonuses, success is fairly foregone IME.

But, I know what you mean. (Not arguing that, just my experiences.)


All in all, I am for randomness in pretty much every aspect of the game as both DM and player. Unfortunately, most players don't feel the same and few DMs allow randomness to go as far as I do.

If I had my way:
Roll for race
Roll for sex (whatever), height, weight, age, birth order and siblings if desired
Roll for ability scores, in ORDER
- If your scores average less than 12, you can roll again
Roll of background
Choose class
Roll for hit points
Roll for starting gold
Roll for spells known / in spellbook

Roll for random encounters
Roll for encounter reactions (including planned encounters)
Roll for morale during combat
Roll for treasure generation (anything goes!)
Roll for random dungeon/terrain if map unavailable

Any edition, I run it the same. But, as I said, when it comes to PC generation, players aren't as much fun as I wish they were.

Why not roll class too?

 

[ezo]

Why not roll class too?

I do have a system for that as well, based on the ability scores, but I felt I should toss players something.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Why not roll class too?

Roll to see what actions you take on your turn, what you say to npcs, what quest you decide to take...

 

[ezo]

Roll to see what actions you take on your turn, what you say to npcs, what quest you decide to take...

I think that is taking things a bit too far...

In all seriousness, once the PC is "created", then the player can really make choices if they want. Although, I have had players in older editions roll randomly for such things because the PC was "chaotic".

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

how do you feel about the various kinds of randomness

Differently every time.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Roll to see what actions you take on your turn, what you say to npcs, what quest you decide to take...

I am curious as to in what sense this is my character and not the dice's at this point.

 

[Charlaquin]

I am curious as to in what sense this is my character and not the dice's at this point.

That was the joke, yes.