D&D 5E How do you kill a 10th level character?

[Schmoe]

A BBEG running around with a Talisman of Ultimate Evil (DC20 Dex save or die) is probably going to spell a very bad day for the party Cleric.

That's a good one. One of my favorite so far has been Disintegrate. I didn't realize quite how much damage it does. Nasty!

 

[DaveDash]

That's a good one. One of my favorite so far has been Disintegrate. I didn't realize quite how much damage it does. Nasty!

Finger of Death does about the same damage, and still does damage on a save. The no damage on a save is something that's caught me out with Disintegrate in the past.

My players often take Chain Lightning instead, same with my NPC spell casters, since it does more overall damage. Disintegrate could be very nasty though against opponents that fail dex saves automatically, such as with a hold person.

Personally (from a NPC perspective), I love harm, since it reduces hit point maximum.

 

[Anthony Terry]

I'd suggest that you're dead wrong. I repeat: Our 13th-level party had to deal with an enemy caster summoning shadows, and they were nasty. ACs don't scale much with level in 5E--even at high levels, it's unusual to see an AC over 20. Low-end monsters can still hit you.

(And "touch AC?" Have you even played 5E? Touch AC hasn't been a thing for two editions now.)

Limited play time of 5th, have read through all the books and did a quick conversion of about a 20 page module (scourge of the howling horde) so no can honestly say i haven't played enough to notice the removal of touch ac and can honestly say i dont even own the books for 4th so apologies for any slight inaccuracies there. I strongly disagree that for a group of 13th level characters the above would prove challenging however, and if it did i doubt it had little to do with the summoning of 1 shadow a round?

 

[Schmoe]

Finger of Death does about the same damage, and still does damage on a save. The no damage on a save is something that's caught me out with Disintegrate in the past.

My players often take Chain Lightning instead, same with my NPC spell casters, since it does more overall damage. Disintegrate could be very nasty though against opponents that fail dex saves automatically, such as with a hold person.

Personally (from a NPC perspective), I love harm, since it reduces hit point maximum.

Finger of Death is actually a shining example of how 5e plays with kid gloves. It no longer has any chance of outright killing a player of 10th+ level, which is around the time it should start showing up. Only if you do 60+ damage to someone who is already in the single digits and they fail their save. Otherwise the character just drops to zero and starts making death saves. Disintegrate is different, because it explicitly says that a character reduced to 0 is actually disintegrated and doesn't get to make death saves.

 

[the Jester]

Limited play time of 5th, have read through all the books and did a quick conversion of about a 20 page module (scourge of the howling horde) so no can honestly say i haven't played enough to notice the removal of touch ac and can honestly say i dont even own the books for 4th so apologies for any slight inaccuracies there. I strongly disagree that for a group of 13th level characters the above would prove challenging however, and if it did i doubt it had little to do with the summoning of 1 shadow a round?

I'm not sure what spell of effect the npc was using to summon shadows, but the impression I got was that it wasn't 1 shadow per round but perhaps a handful of shadows all at once, and I totally buy the notion that they're very dangerous in numbers, even against a high-level party.

After all, the shadows' strength drain attack reduces fighter-types' ability to, well, fight. That strength drain is bad news, especially if the party's healer has to keep burning spell slots to prevent the fighter from dying from strength drain while they're under attack by something that's damaging hps, too.

Regardless, the guy who was in the combat says it was a tough combat. I don't see any reason not to take him at his word on that.

 

[Anthony Terry]

I'm not sure what spell of effect the npc was using to summon shadows, but the impression I got was that it wasn't 1 shadow per round but perhaps a handful of shadows all at once, and I totally buy the notion that they're very dangerous in numbers, even against a high-level party.

After all, the shadows' strength drain attack reduces fighter-types' ability to, well, fight. That strength drain is bad news, especially if the party's healer has to keep burning spell slots to prevent the fighter from dying from strength drain while they're under attack by something that's damaging hps, too.

Regardless, the guy who was in the combat says it was a tough combat. I don't see any reason not to take him at his word on that.

Apologies for the tone in which i phrase things at times, your right it seems i is do come across as calling him a lier which is miss intentional. Im more just asking for more details, i honestly think for a group of say 4 level 13 charecters, even with 0 wizzards, clerics and druids it would take north of 30 shadows to proove "challenging" unless their HP has been doubled or more in 5th.

I feel rather ironic derailing the thread and maybe without actually experiancing more 5th edition at high levels or indeed involving shadows i should refrain from commenting further. I just still have nightmares about some of the shadows in ravenloft attacking me from literally inside the walls as you flee through the corridor, i would at least hope its not debated that their challenge was significantly decreased by the changed, even if you do wish to debate my point that their pretty pointless now

 

[the Jester]

Apologies for the tone in which i phrase things at times, your right it seems i is do come across as calling him a lier which is miss intentional. Im more just asking for more details, i honestly think for a group of say 4 level 13 charecters, even with 0 wizzards, clerics and druids it would take north of 30 shadows to proove "challenging" unless their HP has been doubled or more in 5th.

With area damage to take them down, a mid or high-level party is probably in good shape against a bunch of shadows. But if they are in an area where they can't nuke the shadows without hitting the party, I think the equation is significantly different.

Remember, that strength drain bypasses hit points. That 20 strength that the fighter has will go fast if five shadows swarm him- that's about two to four rounds of attacks, I'd guess.

I feel rather ironic derailing the thread and maybe without actually experiancing more 5th edition at high levels or indeed involving shadows i should refrain from commenting further. I just still have nightmares about some of the shadows in ravenloft attacking me from literally inside the walls as you flee through the corridor, i would at least hope its not debated that their challenge was significantly decreased by the changed, even if you do wish to debate my point that their pretty pointless now

Well, while they can't stay inside the wall anymore, nothing stops them from moving into the area the pcs are at, attacking and then moving away, back through the wall, into the corridor beyond it... every round. Opportunity attacks or readied actions both use your reaction, so each pc is going to be able to get one attack per round in this scenario. It's almost as if the shadows all have Spring Attack.

I haven't run shadows against a high-level party, either, but I honestly see them as a "never obsolete" monster in 5e, given the way the numbers (e.g. the AC of the pcs) just don't escalate out of their reach anymore.

 

[Anthony Terry]

I haven't run shadows against a high-level party, either, but I honestly see them as a "never obsolete" monster in 5e, given the way the numbers (e.g. the AC of the pcs) just don't escalate out of their reach anymore.

Just flicking through the players handbook and i can still see mage armor, protection from evil, 13th level party even in 5th prolly is getting atleast +2 magical armor. thats +8 already. Shadows already becoming obsolete? Dont get me wrong, yes in the ideal scenario of limited space, near but not directly accesible to another space, after the party has probably exhausted over half of its avaliable spells would still be remotely terrifying in rather large numbers.. even in 3.5 my level 11 fighter ran from a group of 2 shadows in utter fear when on full health and in the first corridor of an adventure

 

[the Jester]

Just flicking through the players handbook and i can still see mage armor, protection from evil, 13th level party even in 5th prolly is getting atleast +2 magical armor. thats +8 already.

Not really- the mage armor and magic armor aren't working together, and that PfE is only on one pc (as it requires concentration); shadows will often be able to simply zip through the wall and get at a different target.

I definitely agree that there will some harder targets, and like I said, this is all theorycrafting at this point, but I think that- especially in numbers- shadows will prove dangerous at all levels.

 

[Nebulous]

I definitely agree that there will some harder targets, and like I said, this is all theorycrafting at this point, but I think that- especially in numbers- shadows will prove dangerous at all levels.

Classic trick - if it seems too easy, just have more phase in from the walls