How does Thrane actually fight?

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Only by literal divine intervention can Thranish infantry approach parity with other infantry from the Five Nations.

Of course, it should be pointed out that Thrane HAD more literal divine intervention than any other nation. While not every priest is a divine spellcaster, the Church of the Silver Flame is nonetheless a militant faith that has spent centuries honing the use of their elite divine units. Don't forget that prior to the Last War, the most recent large-scale conflict that's been described was the Silver Crusade (Purge). Thrane might be reluctant to deploy templars against mundane foes as it's not the purpose of the church - but while Aundair has the arcane edge, Thrane - or at least the church - has a history of deploying divine magic in a practical, hands-on military capacity.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by areleth:

The thing about saying that Thrane has endurance, well...I don't know. Frankly, I think that they would defend most effectively by fire, not by steel. I don't see Thranes closing for the decision, because their front-line infantry are low quality. Similarly, I don't see them standing like a stone wall either. Ward off an isolated cavalry charge or two once they schiltrom up? Sure. But, if a Thranish front line takes a hard enough shock, I don't think they're coming back.

Essentially, I see Thrane relying on massive, English-like volleys of longbow fire to degrade, slow, and demoralize attackers. If the attack comes to a halt, then I can see the Thranes launching a countercharge. Without that sort of fire support, a Thranish front-line unit cannot survive against other nations. Only by literal divine intervention can Thranish infantry approach parity with other infantry from the Five Nations.

That's quite true, but I should have been clear that I was thinking of long-term endurance, because of their clerics and adepts. They can get their wounded back into action much quicker and in much greater numbers. Obviously the Thranes were routed and lost ground off and on throughout the war, but I'm thinking that in terms of a long campaign or siege they can outlast their attackers through their divine magic. This method is supported through their reliance on longbowmen, because fewer of their people are in direct combat. So their armies aren't really that incredible, but they keep coming back and every attack you make against them is wearing your own force down more and more. They also had less territory to defend, so they weren't diverting their numbers off to retake the Reach or fight off elves riding up through Talenta.

So the Karrns absolutely have them beat with short-term endurance, but their victories just didn't mean much unless they could really make it definitive.

I absolutely agree with your ideas about Aundair. If you look at their notable unit (the Knights Phantom, of the Knights Arcane), you see...dragoons. Infantry who move about the battlefield with the alacrity of cavalry, only to dismount and fight on foot. With company (or platoon?)-sized units having access to arcane magic in the form of eternal wands and whatnot, Aundair can put out a surprising amount of pain. However, on the defense....yeah, not so much. They might be able to use hordes of summoned monsters, but.....

Their peasant militia's would be pretty tenacious when defending their homes, but would probably have the worst morale of anyone when fighting on enemy soil. The Thranes have faith, the Karrns have discipline, Cyrans were almost always defending, and the Brelish have full stomachs, but the Aundarians miss their homes and fighting with their (extended) families.

It could also be a big factor their loss of the Reaches. Aundair tactics revolve around decimating the enemy regulars and taking the field, but the Reachers never provided them a big target to hit. Their peasant militias weren't happy about fighting their countrymen, and their magewrights and wizards (the real power behind their military) were being targeted constantly by Ranger marksmen. They really had no idea how to deal with it and couldn't risk the further loss of the arcane strength, so they pulled back.

Concerning Cyre, I think you're forgetting the wealth of the Purple Jewel. Cyre had crazy amounts of wealth, and so, they could hire lots of mercenaries. Sure, some of these mercenaries include the Darguul and Valenar forces that would eventually stab them in the back....but other mercenary forces also include the Warforged legions of Cannith, which are flat-out terrifying forces.

Them having nothing else was a joke, sorta, though it does nag at me a lot. But I was still quite serious about their navy. It seems like Cyre had more ports and waterways, and I imagine was a center of trade with Aerenal, so the idea that they had a fair majority of Galifar's navy at the start of the war makes sense to me. Their southern cities were said to be mostly untouched by the war, and I'm thinking that's not only because they were a fair distance from the most obvious targets for Karrnath and Thrane, but also due to their superiority in naval affairs. Really, the majority of their naval efforts could have been dealing with the Lhazaar Pirates that were hired to disrupt their trade routes.

Plus it'd be an interesting source for the core of the Darguuni navy.

Areleth, have you looked at any of the other threads on this board? There's a small group of us who overthink things about Eberron....and make wonderful, wonderful ideas. 

I do read a lot of threads here, and I am constantly filled with joyous shame that my ideas rarely compare to the great ones floating around here. Its really helped flesh out the world for me.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by DoctorBadWolf:

And I agree that Breland would probably have the highest morale, but I think the fact that they'd probably be the best supplied is a big factor in that. Karrnathi soldiers go into battle on the edge of starvation, the Aundairian and Thranish soldiers have rather poor and beaten equipment, and the Cyrans are everyone's favorite punching bags. The Brelish might not be living in luxury, but they go into battle better fed and probably better rested.

One other thing, I'd like to suggest that Cyre had the strongest navy. Both because its a nation of waterways and ports, and because they have nothing else.

The Cyrans not only had the mercs, but the best mercs, with good equipment, and their own military forces had the best equipment. Want to know what a Cyran black ops team looks like? Give a group of CharOp regulars access to all the magic items available, and let them build characters of a given level.

Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by areleth:

The Cyrans not only had the mercs, but the best mercs, with good equipment, and their own military forces had the best equipment. Want to know what a Cyran black ops team looks like? Give a group of CharOp regulars access to all the magic items available, and let them build characters of a given level.

Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.

Lets not kid ourselves, we all know that Cyran soldiers fall over in a stiff breeze.

I acknowledge that Cyre was loaded, but I don't think their regulars were better equiped than any other Nation. Karrnath, I think, fielded the best equipped soldiers en masse. Not because of their industrial capacity, but I think that they likely had well maintained family armors and weapons.

I'll agree that Cyre had the most access to cutting edge equipment though. Probably had more artificers than Aundair, and had Cannith's best workshops just down the street. So they could certainly outfit small groups very well, but even with their wealth I don't think outfitting whole armies was within reason. Especially when they needed so many mercenaries to fill out their ranks.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.

I'd have to disagree here.

What Cyre's money buys is the best that can be bought, which means what Cannith has to offer. The trick is that what Cannith has to offer is available to all nations. Cyre, for example, had more warforged, but every nation fielded warforged units.

On the other hand, as the seat of the Arcane Congress, Aundair had access to whatever unique arcane magic Galifar had been developing. As the military seat of the Silver Flame, Thrane had access to military applications of divine magic that Cannith couldn't duplicate. Karrnath was the ancestral seat of Galifar's military and had the longest martial culture, meaning heirloom magic arms and armor... and later in the war, you have the use of necromancy.

Cyre certainly had the best and most expensive mercs. They had MORE of Cannith's arms than anyone else, and these things allowed them to survive. And I agree that their elite special ops units would be very impressive, because they could afford to twink them out to a crazy degree. But I don't think that overall, their forces were the most "high tech". To me, that distinction falls to Aundair - which is why Aundair remained a viable player in the war despite its smaller size and population.

And in terms of "their mercs were close", especially at the start of the war, I'd say the mercs were far better. Mercenaries are a huge factor in Cyre's favor. Set aside the warforged, and you have the following:
* The Valenar: The typical Valenar were the equal of most nation's elite forces, and their elite forces were essentially without peer. Of course, their impact is limited by their numbers, but Cyre's essential monopoly on the Valenar was a boon to begin with... even though it didn't work out so well at the end.
* The Blademark: Here's another place where money matters. Anyone could purchase Deneith services, but Cyre could step in at the start and purchase the best they had to offer. Just as Aundair had some tricks Cannith didn't, the soldiers of each nation had some tricks Deneith didn't. But Deneith's best were certainly some of the best on Khorvaire, and Cyre got the best.
* The Goblins: An entirely unexpected force capable of inspiring a certain level of fear by virtue of being unknown and inhuman. And even the strongest human can't match the might of a strong bugbear. The Darguuls were raiders and shock troops, but they were an important factor in catching Breland off-guard on what it expected to be an easy front.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by DoctorBadWolf:

Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.

I'd have to disagree here.

What Cyre's money buys is the best that can be bought, which means what Cannith has to offer. The trick is that what Cannith has to offer is available to all nations. Cyre, for example, had more warforged, but every nation fielded warforged units.

On the other hand, as the seat of the Arcane Congress, Aundair had access to whatever unique arcane magic Galifar had been developing. As the military seat of the Silver Flame, Thrane had access to military applications of divine magic that Cannith couldn't duplicate. Karrnath was the ancestral seat of Galifar's military and had the longest martial culture, meaning heirloom magic arms and armor... and later in the war, you have the use of necromancy.

Cyre certainly had the best and most expensive mercs. They had MORE of Cannith's arms than anyone else, and these things allowed them to survive. And I agree that their elite special ops units would be very impressive, because they could afford to twink them out to a crazy degree. But I don't think that overall, their forces were the most "high tech". To me, that distinction falls to Aundair - which is why Aundair remained a viable player in the war despite its smaller size and population.

Odd. IMO, it doesn't make sense for them to not have their own R&D efforts, outside of what Cannith can provide.

I mean, it's not like they don't know that any toy they buy from Cannith is also being sold to every other nation. Further, it's not like there aren't artificers and other arcanists, even brilliant ones, that don't work for Cannith.

I can also see them turning useful people from other nations over to their side through sheer force of money. So I don't think that any arcane resource, in terms of a person's abilities (other than dragonmarks, obviously) that another nation has make sense to not have a few turncoats in Cyre who once had access to that knowledge base. In other words, I assume that Cyre had a few turncoats from the Congress that stole magical secrets to pay their way into a richly appointed Manse in Cyre.

I've always thought that Aundair remained viable because they just have the most arcane spellcasters, and magically buffed up troops.

Cyre, to me, keeps in the fight by having a solution to partially counter each nation's strength. Small units trained to take out casters, generals, etc. Where Thrane has the English longbowmen, Cyre has exploding arrows. Where Karnnath has the seat of military discipline, Cyre has new schools of tactics where strategies are thought up for the unique skill set of the Cyran military, and mercs with completely different abilities and tactics. None of these things are enough, by themselves, but together they make a military that is never at a loss as to how to respond to it's enemies.

All, IMO, of course. That's just what makes sense to me, because IMO if mercs and more of the tech that everyone else has are their main resources, they should have been stomped into the ground within the first decade of the war.


Originally posted by DoctorBadWolf:

The Cyrans not only had the mercs, but the best mercs, with good equipment, and their own military forces had the best equipment. Want to know what a Cyran black ops team looks like? Give a group of CharOp regulars access to all the magic items available, and let them build characters of a given level.

Basically, their non merc military was probably the most "high tech" of all the nations, and their mercs were close.

Lets not kid ourselves, we all know that Cyran soldiers fall over in a stiff breeze.

I acknowledge that Cyre was loaded, but I don't think their regulars were better equiped than any other Nation. Karrnath, I think, fielded the best equiped soldiers en masse. Not because of their industrial capacity, but I think that they likely had well maintained family armors and weapons.

I'll agree that Cyre had the most access to cutting edge equipment though. Probably had more artificers than Aundair, and had Cannith's best workshops just down the street. So they could certainly outfit small groups very well, but even with their wealth I don't think outfiting whole armies was within reason. Especially when they needed so many mercenaries to fill out their ranks.

Their normal army also wasn't that large. It's entirely reasonable to think that they were better equiped. It doesn't take much to out-equip nations that have a fraction your wealth. As you said, they had the artificers, they had the cash, and tech, money and small numbers almost always leads to very well equipped, high tech military units. It also leads to very specialized units, rather than trying to have a strong infantry to field, for instance.

The idea that their regular troops couldn't stand up to the troops of other nations just...doesn't work, honestly. Mercs alone cannot explain 100 years of not getting overrun.

Re: naval power: it's reasonable to think that they would have privateers, as well, to disrupt the naval power and trade of other nations.

I also see the Cyran govt. funding R&D like crazy, and fielding new weapons before anyone else, so we agree on the cuttin edge thing.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Odd. IMO, it doesn't make sense for them to not have their own R&D efforts, outside of what Cannith can provide.

Of course they would. But the point is that until a century ago, they didn't have to, because their R&D efforts were called "Aundair." Cyre's money - which was, remember, Galifar's money - was funding the construction of Aundair's arcane labs. So when the war begins - just a century ago - Cyre is faced with the daunting task of mobilizing an immediate defense and getting military conscription into place. They need to build up intelligence support, because what do you know, the King's Citadel is in the hands of Breland. Once they have a basic defense and intelligence running, they can turn to arcane research - but at that point, it's a matter of trying to scrounge the resources and technical expertise to build viable facilities in the middle of a war effort.

Consider nations trying to get nuclear capability today. Aundair is essentially the US. It's got the expertise. It's got the facilities. It knows what rare elements are required, and it's got massive stockpiles of them. Saudi Arabia has a ton of money, but that doesn't mean they can just have a working nuclear bomb project going in five years. Not only do they not have the facilities, but without scientific experts they don't even know what the facilities need to be... and even once they get a facility constructed, they need the fissionable materials. That's Cyre's situation. It had wizards - some trained at the Arcane Congress in the past, others working there when war was declared - but a fraction of the hands-on expertise and none of the facilities, because mystical research was Aundair's purpose in Galifar; Cyre's was governance.

Again: over the course of a century, they'd build up as quickly as they could. They'd get Cannith help in constructing their own facilities. They'd fund their wizards well - though again, the issue is that Aundair had the benefit of centuries worth of stockpiled components to use. So Cannith's forces would certainly have more magical support than, say, Breland or Thrane - I'm just saying that I don't see them as being the MOST "high-tech" of the Five Nations.

And just to clarify: At the start of the war, Cyre had spies from the King's Citadel. It had officers trained in Rekkenmark. And it had wizards trained in the Arcane Congress. Heck, it had paladins of the Silver Flame. Every nation did, because these facilities were national services, and when the war broke out nationals returned to serve their nations. It's simply the case that the nations where these things were based had the BULK of these things because they were a point of national pride, and they also had the bulk of the facilities and resources associated with the specialty; Aundair has the strategic dragonshard reserves, for example. So nations have edges - but at the start of the war, Cyre's defense was being organized by Rekkenmark trained officers commanding units of Galifar's army - officers who had been trained alongside their Karrnathi counterparts.

With that said: You raise an excellent point about the secondary power of gold - corruption. Breland may have had the edge in espionage because of the King's Citadel, but Cyre's gold would give it the ability to subvert experts in other nations. 


Originally posted by Hellcow:

I mean, it's not like they don't know that any toy they buy from Cannith is also being sold to every other nation.

Indeed. Though to bring my point back to the start, what I'm saying is that if Thrane has five warforged titans, Cyre might have a hundred... and when if comes to fighting those Thrane archers, being able to field a few titans makes a big difference. The argument is whether Cyre's forces were more "high-tech". My point is that they had a superior quantity of Cannith magic, as opposed to unique advanced techniques; the most advanced techniques were in the hands of Aundair, which had been the center for magical research for the history of Galifar.

Further, it's not like there aren't artificers and other arcanists, even brilliant ones, that don't work for Cannith.

Certainly. There's lots of brilliant artificers and arcanists who don't work for Cannith. And if they're citizens of Galifar and don't work for Cannith, odds are they honed those skills at Galifar's center for mystical training... the Arcane Congress in Aundair. Now, as I said above, pupils came from across Galifar and returned to their homes afterwards. But it still leaves arcane study as Aundair's point of national pride, and still leaves them with the facilities and resources. Even if Cyre seduces an Aundairian genius away with gold, they still need to build the facilities, get him dragonshards, etc. And bear in mind that it's not so simple as construction. Much of the most powerful magic draws on planar energies. Many of Aundair and Cannith's facilities are constructed in manifest zones, allowing them to tap this power. For the other nations - because EVERY nation immediate put its war magic program into high gear once the war started - it's not just about getting wizards and dragonshards, it's identifying manifest zones and other places that are ideal for construction.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by DoctorBadWolf:

Odd. IMO, it doesn't make sense for them to not have their own R&D efforts, outside of what Cannith can provide.

Of course they would. But the point is that until a century ago, they didn't have to, because their R&D efforts were called "Aundair." Cyre's money - which was, remember, Galifar's money - was funding the construction of Aundair's arcane labs. So when the war begins - just a century ago - Cyre is faced with the daunting task of mobilizing an immediate defense and getting military conscription into place. They need to build up intelligence support, because what do you know, the King's Citadel is in the hands of Breland. Once they have a basic defense and intelligence running, they can turn to arcane research - but at that point, it's a matter of trying to scrounge the resources and technical expertise to build viable facilities in the middle of a war effort.

Consider nations trying to get nuclear capability today. Aundair is essentially the US. It's got the expertise. It's got the facilities. It knows what rare elements are required, and it's got massive stockpiles of them. Saudi Arabia has a ton of money, but that doesn't mean they can just have a working nuclear bomb project going in five years. Not only do they not have the facilities, but without scientific experts they don't even know what the facilities need to be... and even once they get a facility constructed, they need the fissionable materials. That's Cyre's situation. It had wizards - some trained at the Arcane congress in the past, others working their when war was declared - but a fraction of the hands-on expertise and none of the facilities, because mystical research was Aundair's purpose in Galifar; Cyre's was governance.

Again: over the course of a century, they'd build up as quickly as they could. They'd get Cannith help in constructing their own facilities. They'd fund their wizards well - though again, the issue is that Aundair had the benefit of centuries worth of stockpiled components to use. So Cannith's forces would certainly have more magical support than, say, Breland or Thrane - I'm just saying that I don't see them as being the MOST "high-tech" of the Five Nations.

And just to clarify: At the start of the war, Cyre had spies from the King's Citadel. It had officers trained in Rekkenmark. And it had wizards trained in the Arcane Congress. Heck, it had paladins of the Silver Flame. Every nation did, because these facilities were national services, and when the war broke out nationals returned to serve their nations. It's simply the case that the nations where these things were based had the BULK of these things because they were a point of national pride, and they also had the bulk of the facilities and resources associated with the specialty; Aundair has the strategic dragonshard reserves, for example. So nations have edges - but at the start of the war, Cyre's defense was being organized by Rekkenmark trained officers commanding units of Galifar's army - officers who had been trained alongside their Karrnathi counterparts.

With that said: You raise an excellent point about the secondary power of gold - corruption. Breland may have had the edge in espionage because of the King's Citadel, but Cyre's gold would give it the ability to subvert experts in other nations. 

All great points, but there are a few factors that make it hard for me to abandon my current thinking on the subject.

First, that's a whole century. Nations can completely transform themselves in less time than that. Within a decade, they would have (as always, IMO) gotten their defenses up and figured out their strengths and weaknesses. Within two decades, they would have had arcane colleges, research labs, etc built and staffed.

Second, Cyre was the seat of Galifar's government. That means, to me, that they would have had more Citadel trained spies than any nation other than Breland, more Rekkenmark trained generals than anyone but Karrnath, and more Congress trained Mages than anyone but Aundair. Paladins of the silver flame, not so sure of. In fact, right at the start, I'd expect them to have more active, fully trained veteran spies than Breland. That would quickly change, of course.

There would also have been important figures in magical and alchemical research reporting regularly to the capital, and even people in the know working as liaisons, etc.

Over the course of a century, it is very reasonable for a rich nation to build up research facilities.

Now, I read your other post, and you make good sense. What I think the divide is, is that I see the Aundair focusing a bit more on new spells and techniques, but Cyre being the place willing to fund your crazy alchemy/techy magic research that might not pan out for another 30 years, and thus benefiting from that research, just as science works IRL.

So, combine the second most non Cannith research of the nations with much more money than any of them, and the application of new magical knowledge would, IMO, lead to Cyre having the "tech" advantage, even if Aundair has many more spellcasters to shoot fire at the enemy.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Over the course of a century, it is very reasonable for a rich nation to build up research facilities.

Correct. Over the course of a
century.

Second, Cyre was the seat of Galifar's government. That means, to me, that they would have had more Citedel trained spies than any nation other than Breland, more Rekkenmark trained generals than anyone but Karrnath, and more Congress trained Mages than anyone but Aundair.

And I agree - but what I said above plays in reverse here. There would be more Aundair-trained mages in Cyre at the start of the war. There'd be more Rekkenmark trained generals there, because it's the seat of power. And yet, how many of those wizards were Cyran patriots? How many of those generals were actually Karrns, who would return to Karrnath as soon as Kaius made his plans?

The Citadel, Arcane Congress, and Rekkenmark were all national services. People from across Khorvaire would travel to study their arts. And yet, they are also the pride of their respective nations. Why travel to Aundair to study magic when I could learn the arts of war at Rekkenmark, as my father did before me? We don't need wizards; that's Aundairian work, and we've got an Aundairian wizard down the street doing the rituals that need to be done - at least, those that aren't already being done by Cannith, Kundarak, or the other commercial institutions.

Meanwhile, Cyre itself had it's national service and point of pride: the crown itself. The archives. The mint. And beyond that, the culture. It's Cyre that celebrated the history of Galifar. They have the finest museums; the greatest bards and artists outside of House Phiarlan. Cyrans don't NEED to go to Rekkenmark to study war. That's what Karrns love, and there are Karrnathi soldiers wearing the uniform of Galifar guarding the gates of Metrol. There are Brelish spies reporting to the king. And there is an Aundairian minister of magic. All these people served Galifar, doing what their nation was best at. Some of the best of them served in Cyre, serving the needs of the government. But when their leaders rejected Mishann's claim, they went home.

Again, over
time
Cyre's wealth would allow it to overcome its handicaps. And in the immediate short term, it could field exceptional mercenary troops and more Cannith hardware than any other nation could afford. But it was a handicap it had to deal with. In my Eberron, of course.

Now, I read your other post, and you make good sense. What I think the divide is, is that I see the Aundair focusing a bit more on new spells and techniques, but Cyre being the place willing to fund your crazy alchemy/techy magic research that might not pan out for another 30 years, and thus benefiting from that research, just as science works IRL.

And what I'm saying is that's what Aundair had been DOING for centuries before the war even started. The Congress-trained wizards in Cyre when the war began were those trained to perform practical tasks, who had value away from the academic world... or administrators setting arcane policy. Whereas Aundair was the seat of research and experimentation - and they wouldn't suddenly stop that because of the war, even if they focused on the projects that were most promising. And where Cyre had more money at the time the war began, Aundair had centuries of Galifar's gold invested in its arcane infrastructure and resources. We're back to yellowcake uranium: You've got a crazy idea for a new project, and it's going to take a hundred pounds of ground Khyber dragonshards. In the middle of the war, it could take you years to acquire that, even with gold to spare; whereas Aundair had the dragonshard reserves of the kingdom, and it would simply be a question of whether they were willing to spend them on your project.

Again, I see Cyre as second to Aundair when it comes to arcane. For me, Aundair is first in research as well as sheer number of practical casters. But there's nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by DoctorBadWolf:

Over the course of a century, it is very reasonable for a rich nation to build up research facilities.

Correct. Over the course of a
century.

Second, Cyre was the seat of Galifar's government. That means, to me, that they would have had more Citedel trained spies than any nation other than Breland, more Rekkenmark trained generals than anyone but Karrnath, and more Congress trained Mages than anyone but Aundair.

And I agree - but what I said above plays in reverse here. There would be more Aundair-trained mages in Cyre at the start of the war. There'd be more Rekkenmark trained generals there, because it's the seat of power. And yet, how many of those wizards were Cyran patriots? How many of those generals were actually Karrns, who would return to Karrnath as soon as Kaius made his plans?

The Citadel, Arcane Congress, and Rekkenmark were all national services. People from across Khorvaire would travel to study their arts. And yet, they are also the pride of their respective nations. Why travel to Aundair to study magic when I could learn the arts of war at Rekkenmark, as my father did before me? We don't need wizards; that's Aundairian work, and we've got an Aundairian wizard down the street doing the rituals that need to be done - at least, those that aren't already being done by Cannith, Kundarak, or the other commercial institutions.

Meanwhile, Cyre itself had it's national service and point of pride: the crown itself. The archives. The mint. And beyond that, the culture. It's Cyre that celebrated the history of Galifar. They have the finest museums; the greatest bards and artists outside of House Phiarlan. Cyrans don't NEED to go to Rekkenmark to study war. That's what Karrns love, and there are Karrnathi soldiers wearing the uniform of Galifar guarding the gates of Metrol. There are Brelish spies reporting to the king. And there is an Aundairian minister of magic. All these people served Galifar, doing what their nation was best at. Some of the best of them served in Cyre, serving the needs of the government. But when their leaders rejected Mishann's claim, they went home.

Again, over
time
Cyre's wealth would allow it to overcome its handicaps. And in the immediate short term, it could field exceptional mercenary troops and more Cannith hardware than any other nation could afford. But it was a handicap it had to deal with. In my Eberron, of course.

Now, I read your other post, and you make good sense. What I think the divide is, is that I see the Aundair focusing a bit more on new spells and techniques, but Cyre being the place willing to fund your crazy alchemy/techy magic research that might not pan out for another 30 years, and thus benefiting from that research, just as science works IRL.

And what I'm saying is that's what Aundair had been DOING for centuries before the war even started. The Congress-trained wizards in Cyre when the war began were those trained to perform practical tasks, who had value away from the academic world... or administrators setting arcane policy. Whereas Aundair was the seat of research and experimentation - and they wouldn't suddenly stop that because of the war, even if they focused on the projects that were most promising. And where Cyre had more money at the time the war began, Aundair had centuries of Galifar's gold invested in its arcane infrastructure and resources. We're back to yellowcake uranium: You've got a crazy idea for a new project, and it's going to take a hundred pounds of ground Khyber dragonshards. In the middle of the war, it could take you years to acquire that, even with gold to spare; whereas Aundair had the dragonshard reserves of the kingdom, and it would simply be a question of whether they were willing to spend them on your project.

Again, I see Cyre as second to Aundair when it comes to arcane. For me, Aundair is first in research as well as sheer number of practical casters. But there's nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree.

What? Don't you know that it's morally reprehensible to agree to disagree?

Seriously, though, I get what you're saying. I also look at history and see the greatest advancement in science and technology almost always coming out of the places that are also most culturally advanced. I also don't think that Cyre would need to try to get the nuke. In other words, they might be researching things that don't require dragonshards. Lastly, I think that building up that research capability would take a very short amount of time.

In war, wartime science grows quickly. Almost frighteningly so. A nation that puts a large pool of resources into science during a war can become a tech powerhouse in just a few years. If we were talking about a 20 year war, I'd be more inclined to just look at what each nation was known for before the war broke out, but over a century, with Cyre still being rich at the end...money wins wars. IMO, what makes sense is to conclude that those institutions in other nations are the only reason that Cyre didn't dominate.

I also think that whatever knowledge and weapons Aundair had developed before the war, Cyre had. Not just knowledge of, but straight up had in their possession, ready to use. So I can see an arms race between the two nations. I should also make clear that the most high tech army isn't always the one with the best toys. Sometimes it's the one with the greatest proliferation of toys from among the best available. So, say Aundair often has a small but important lead on Cyre in new tech, but sometimes Cyran arcanists come up with new things Aundair hasn't thought of.

Who can afford to outfit large numbers of troops with these new toys?

Maybe Aundair has more mages with more advanced spell use, etc, but their soldiers have a lower level of tech, whereas Cyran soldiers, especially their specialists, have the best possible equipment.

That's a big part of how high tech an army is. The US military isn't as high tech as the level of tech that we've developed, for instance, because we don't arm our soldiers with the really high end stuff that often, due to cost. Japan's defense force, however, is the most high tech in the world on both fronts. The spend the money to outfit and train their guys with the best toys, and they have the shiniest robots.

 I also see Cyre being possibly the only place in Khorvaire where arcanists are sitting down with tribal shamans and other "strange and foreign" magic users to expand their understanding of magic, as an aside.