How does Thrane actually fight?

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

In other words, they might be researching things that don't require dragonshards.

In my opinion, there's no such thing. Dragonshards are the fundamental component required for any sort of arcane magical item. As a side note, in 4E terms, residuum is simply the highest grade of dragonshard. Coming up with arcane magic that doesn't require dragonshards would be like, today, deciding out of the blue to come up with a light bulb that doesn't use electricity. Undoubtedly it could be done, but it would be as difficult as creating an entirely new system of technology.

In war, wartime science grows quickly. Almost frighteningly so. A nation that puts a large pool of resources into science during a war can become a tech powerhouse in just a few years.

We are entirely in agreement. This has always been one of the core ideas OF Eberron. If you check my HDWT blogs, one of my frustrations is that the setting as it stands doesn't go into enough detail about the advances that have occured over the past century and the forms of war magic that have been developed. What we're debating is the sorts of resources that are available. You're saying that Cyre can acheive this with gold alone - and Cyre had more GOLD than Aundair, to be sure. I'm saying that when you take that gold and convert it into its equivalent in net worth of the infrastructure and components used for magical research and production, Aundair is wealthier than Cyre... and that beyond that, you're dealing with a culture where magical education is considered a virtue, a nation that has spent generations locating and evaluating the potential of its manifest zones, where magic is part of daily life in a way it's not in Cyre. This is a nation that knows its strength is its knowledge, not its physical power or its gold. When it comes to war, it knows that it must out-think its enemies: that arcane knowledge is the only edge it has. Cyre had the gold and had far more people. It COULD buy mercenaries and Cannith tools. Aundair had knowledge, and it wasn't going to let that advantage go. Cyre could advance a great distance in 30 years - and in the meantime, Aundair would advance just as far. Magic is their one edge, and the one thing they COULD maintain, because again, it's the resource their nation possessed. They didn't have to spend as much gold to do so because they already had the resources they needed to work with. They couldn't buy mercenaries to match Cannith or suddenly produce an army with the discipline of Karrnath. But they had magic, and they could keep that edge. 

I also think that whatever knowledge and weapons Aundair had developed before the war, Cyre had. Not just knowledge of, but straight up had in their possession, ready to use.

Weapons? Absolutely. So did Breland and Karrnath. Because Aundair made those weapons for Galifar. But knowledge? Never. Those weapons were made in Aundair and shipped to anyone who needed them. Cyre paid for those factories. It didn't need the knowledge of how to build them itself... and if it needed a magic item factory next door, Cannith is right there in Eston.

I should also make clear that the most high tech army isn't always the one with the best toys. Sometimes it's the one with the greatest proliferation of toys from among the best available.

Which may place us at arguing semantics. Again, looking specifically to Cannith, Cyre had the greatest amount of Cannith weaponry. No question. But in terms of unique tools and techniques, I just can't see gold alone being enough to get Cyre on par with Aundair, especially when they are also spending that gold on mercenaries, Cannith equipment and other dragonmarked services, and mundane fortifications, troops, and spies. Gold can only go so far, and when the general hears "There's Karrnathi troops massing to the north!" is her first response going to be "Hire everything Deneith and Cannith can spare" or "Take that same money and start investing it in wild alchemical programs that may pan out in thirty years!"

Again, over time? Sure. But Cyre had a lot of things to spend its money on that had clear and immediate practical value. Yes, Cannith tools are available to everyone. But if you can buy five times as many as anyone else, do you go ahead and do that, or do you take those funds and hope that somewhere down the road you might be able to come up with something better? In Aundair, their culture is based around the idea that you do - that superior magic is the single key to victory. Cyran culture wasn't based around that concept, and they had other options available. Again, if we're simply talking about quantity of high-quality arms, Cannith can do that - and the presence of Cannith IS a strength Cyre had. Which frankly, is yet another reason I'm inclined to think that as a Cyran ruler, I'd push it down the priority list. Cannith IS my research and development division. Again, I won't have a weapon you don't, but I'll likely have Cannith's breakthroughs first and I'll have more of them... and I'd sooner spend my money buying Cannith's successful projects than burn it on ideas that simply don't end up working and leave me with nothing.

sometimes Cyran arcanists come up with new things Aundair hasn't thought of.

Absolutely. So do Karrnathi and Brelish arcanists. Thrane clerics have techniques none of them can match. It's not a question of whether Aundair can do everything everyone else can; it's whether, overall, it had the most sophisticated techniques.

That's a big part of how high tech an army is. The US military isn't as high tech as the level of tech that we've developed, for instance, because we don't arm our soldiers with the really high end stuff that often, due to cost. Japan's defense force, however, is the most high tech in the world on both fronts. The spend the money to outfit and train their guys with the best toys, and they have the shiniest robots.

But from day one, I've been seeing Aundair as Japan in this analogy. They're certainly not the US. They don't have the manpower to match any other nation, even before you count Cyre's use of mercenaries - and they don't have the money to hire mercenaries. Their soldiers simply don't have the martial discipline to match Karrnath. The only edge they have is magic, and they know it. Thus they focus all their military efforts on making sure that they are bringing the most advanced magic to the field - and the fact that they are not only around today, but actually considering initiating a new war again speaks to just how significant that edge is. Again, the leader of the smallest nation actually thinks she could start the war again and win it... stop and think about that.

Obviously you have the fact that they didn't win before, which shows that their edge wasn't unbeatable. One of the points I'd put here is that I see them having a very tough rival in Thrane, because rather than having their arcane edge match up against a nation with an inferior version of their own techniques, their most aggressive rival was a nation using, essentially, an entirely different form of technology (IE divine magic). One question is whether Aurala thinks she's come up with an answer to that over the last four years. If Aundair's figured out a way to extinguish the Silver Flame, they could devastate Thrane... though in the process they'd unleash all the Overlords of the first age and devastate everything. Oops.

At the end of the day, this is something of a semantic point. We agree that Cannith's elite forces would have excellent equipment due to their wealth as a nation. We agree that they can lure experts from other nations, and that they can buy more hardware than others can afford. But I don't see them being close to Aundair when it comes to the cutting edge of research. Aundair has the infrastructure and a culture that has always considered arcane magic to be the single most powerful tool in the world... whereas for Cyre, it's a case of "Oh, we need to get some of that."

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by areleth:

Their normal army also wasn't that large. It's entirely reasonable to think that they were better equiped. It doesn't take much to out-equip nations that have a fraction your wealth. As you said, they had the artificers, they had the cash, and tech, money and small numbers almost always leads to very well equipped, high tech military units. It also leads to very specialized units, rather than trying to have a strong infantry to field, for instance.

The idea that their regular troops couldn't stand up to the troops of other nations just...doesn't work, honestly. Mercs alone cannot explain 100 years of not getting overrun.

Re: naval power: it's reasonable to think that they would have privateers, as well, to disrupt the naval power and trade of other nations.

I also see the Cyran govt. funding R&D like crazy, and fielding new weapons before anyone else, so we agree on the cuttin edge thing.

I don't actually think Cyran troops were especially worse than Brelish or Aundarian soldiers, the stiff breeze was just humor. But their primary purpose was still defense, to my recollection. The mercs Cyre was hiring were Cyre's offensive edge, so outfitting their regular armies with the best of the best equipment wouldn't have been as much of a concern. Definitely would have been constantly innovating to try and grab some edge though, and I think they would have been able to get a leg up on Aundair here and there through sheer desperation. The history of Cyre in the Last War seems to be filled with examples of Cyre doing their best just to survive, barely anything about actually making real blows against the other nations. That desperation to come up with something, anything, could have been one of the most important factors in driving Cyran innovations, and may have very well led them to trying things the Aundarians either didn't think were worth attempting or didn't really think about at all.

And personally I think the other nations would be hiring privateers to prey on Cyre's merchant fleets. Cyre's biggest edge is its massive monetary advantage. Disrupt the flow of trade into Cyre's southern ports and you can start to choke off that advantage. Of course all the Nations were probably doing that to each other, but I think Cyre would be the hardest hit by a loss of sea-faring trade so they were likely the most targeted. Tying up their navy with pirates would also help keep them from using that as their own leverage.

Thus they focus all their military efforts on making sure that they are bringing the most advanced magic to the field - and the fact that they are not only around today, but actually considering initiating a new war again speaks to just how significant that edge is. Again, the leader of the smallest nation actually thinks she could start the war again and win it... stop and think about that.

I always thought that Aurala was blinded by her own ambition and being manipulated by one evil force or another. Outside castrophic Plot Nukes, which really any of the nations could be considering, I can't see Aundair taking any of the other nations without convincing them to surrender quickly. Like blitzkrieg, they move really fast and do a lot of damage but quickly over-extend themselves.

Actually, Aundair as Japan is an interesting example here if we take Breland as the US. Aundair can hit quick and devastate the Brelish forces, but if they don't force an end to the war in the first six months then they're going to be overwhelmed by sheer industrial power. And they have to do that to Thrane and Karrnath at the same time or be left open to attack.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

I don't actually think Cyran troops were especially worse than Brelish or Aundarian soldiers, the stiff breeze was just humor.

Agreed. I'll point out that the main characters in the Dreaming Dark trilogy and Eye of the Wolf were Cyran soldiers, and The Fading Dream shows a Cyran special forces unit; all of them certainly account well for themselves. The point with mercenaries isn't that Cyran troops can't stand up on their own; it's "How did Cyre survive the first decade of the war?" By hiring every spare body they could.

Beyond this, I'll also point out that in my mind, the extensive use of mercenaries and warforged also speaks to the fact that as much as possible, the rulers of Cyre didn't want to throw their people onto the grindstone of the front lines. They didn't have a martial tradition like Karrnath; they valued culture, and among other things, they wanted to preserve that culture. IMO, the colleges of the arts were funded right to the end, because that's part of what defines Cyre - and if they surrender their identity to become an engine of war, what are they fighting for?

Definitely would have been constantly innovating to try and grab some edge though, and I think they would have been able to get a leg up on Aundair here and there through sheer desperation. The history of Cyre in the Last War seems to be filled with examples of Cyre doing their best just to survive, barely anything about actually making real blows against the other nations. That desperation to come up with something, anything, could have been one of the most important factors in driving Cyran innovations, and may have very well led them to trying things the Aundarians either didn't think were worth attempting or didn't really think about at all.

This I agree with. I dislike the image of Cyre having an established, reliable research and production pipeline that is on par with Aundair's capabilities. Again, Aundair has been refining its systems and techniques for centuries and was relying on arcane magic 100% for their wartime survival - whereas for Cyre, it's just one of the options they had to pursue (the others including numerical superiority, mercenary forces, purchasing mass quantities of materiel from Cannith and other houses, etc).

But to me, a strong part of the Cyran national character is exactly this: the determination to survive against the odds. You don't have the best magic, the oldest tradition of war, the most spies or paladins. What you have is your pride and the knowledge that alone of all the nations, you are in the right of this war - and that you will not let your achievements be lost. You will face impossible odds and somehow you will survive. The Cyran artificer jury-rigging something together that no-one's ever seen and that he'll never be able to replicate but is JUST ENOUGH to turn the tide is a very Cyran moment for me - more so that having the biggest fanciest workshop in the land. I see the Cyrans as always making sacrifices - for all their wealth, having to figure out how they can afford all the things they need to defend every front.

This is the spirit that sustains them today. They've lost everything. They've lost that wealth. But the gold isn't what defined them. It's the pride. The culture. And the determination to survive through any hardship that the Six send their way.


Originally posted by Hellcow:

I always thought that Aurala was blinded by her own ambition and being manipulated by one evil force or another. Outside castrophic Plot Nukes, which really any of the nations could be considering, I can't see Aundair taking any of the other nations without convincing them to surrender quickly. Like blitzkrieg, they move really fast and do a lot of damage but quickly over-extend themselves.

Actually, Aundair as Japan is an interesting example here if we take Breland as the US. Aundair can hit quick and devastate the Brelish forces, but if they don't force an end to the war in the first six months then they're going to be overwhelmed by sheer industrial power. And they have to do that to Thrane and Karrnath at the same time or be left open to attack.

Agreed on all counts. My point is simply that is any nation has access to catastrophic plot nukes, Aundair is an excellent candidate because of its reliance on and constant evolution of arcane magic. Aurala could simply be a fool being manipulated by the quori, Lords of Dust, or someone else. Or she may have developed a magical weapon that truly changes the game... although if so, what are the consequences of using it?

Essentially, because of their reliance on unconventional weapons of war, the question of why Aurala thinks a new war can be won becomes an interesting one.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Ogiwan:

I'm going to chime in on my usual topic: logistics. As I've stated in other threads, access to Rekkenmark, and thus, the mastery of logistics (and the rest of the art/science of war) is where Karrnath is frightening. Now, Cyre can hire mercenaries who, by being Deneith-trained, may be the equal of Karrnath's in terms of training and discipline. But, once you go above the front-line, the advantage of mercenaries fades. Who handles their logistics? Coordination of units?

Hmm. I think I have another thread idea.....