How heroic should a PC be?

[Hairfoot]

Despite my pre-release negativity, I’m really enjoying 4E. However, I’m also one of the (seemingly) growing number of D&D players who is considering a return to an old edition of the game.

One of the primary reasons I’m turning off 4E is the relative power level of the PCs. They are explicitly heroic, recognisably stronger than regular mortals, and the main players in the important events of their world. I’m aware that this is exactly what many D&Ders want and enjoy in a campaign, and fair enough.

Personally, I enjoy campaigns on a more…mortal scale, where the PCs are talented and daring, but need a few levels before they really begin to stand out from the warriors, guards and militant monsters of their world.

I’ve made the poll simple because everyone has their own reckoning of the default power level of characters in each edition, but I’d like to hear ENworld’s thoughts on PC power and where it should be set.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I`m not sure if heroic=powerful as you seem to suggest, Hairfoot, but I am pretty happy with both the power level and assumed heroic tendencies of the PC`s in 4E. I have disliked how weak PCs are at low levels in most every edition of D&D (oddly I don`t mind it too much in OD&D (moldvay)) and then they ramp up to crazy superhero power in the later levels (3E was probably the worst for this ime but I`ve only played a handful of 1E or 2E games past level 15). As odd as it may seem I am really liking the `super`powers of low level PCs and I think (although I haven`t reach there yet) that the later levels will be a lot easier to run and play in just because not as much gets added in re: abilities, spells, powers etc. as compared to PCs from other editions.

 

[Victim]

While 4e PCs have explicit special abilities, relative PC power compared to monsters seems to have taken a huge hit. Reasonable starting characters compared to orcs or even kobolds seem a lot weaker than in previous editions.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I say it depends on the setting/campaign style. So far in my 4e campaign, while the PCs feel like accomplished/enabled in what they can do they certainly wouldn't dare go against say the Town Militia.

I think that really levels are quite subjective and with some minor fluff adjustments can be completely reworked. You say that PCs in 4e are more powerful then normal Mortals. But what if I made normal Mortals a number of levels higher then PCs then they would certainly not be the norm, hell they be weaker then the norm.

As such, I think that really it doesn't matter if your level 1 or 30, by refluffing/re-stating something the whole idea of power can alter.

As for just base 4e without any refluffing, I would consider them able-bodied adventurers but certainly not over-powering. Hell Kobolds can give them a run for their money.

 

[Lanefan]

There's no way to answer this without considering level.

Low-level 4e characters are way, *way* too powerful compared to the commoners around them (and that they recently were, it is assumed). They get hero status handed to them at 1st level, rather than having to earn it...doesn't quite fit, somehow.

I don't know about mid-high level 4e characters but given the way the powers etc. seem to scale I'd say they probably get more in line with where they should be (relative to the greater world) as the levels get higher. I don't see them ever being underpowered, though.

Lanefan

 

[FireLance]

I'm reasonably traditional in the sense that I like to start the PCs off slightly better than the average commoner, but I don't want them to stay that way for long. By the third or fourth session, the PCs ought to be about as competent relative to the average commoner as 1st-level PCs in 4e.

My own fix for this is to develop Novice and Apprentice level PCs for 4e, which also doubles up as a nice teaching tool for new players because it introduces them to their PCs' abilities in stages.

 

[justanobody]

Don't really understand the options for the poll, so like adding Mickey Mouse as a candidate for a recent event as I feel he was better suited for the position than anyone on the poll, I will offer a write in response here as well.

I think PCs should not be heroic, but able to become heroic through actions. If they start out as heroes, then it really defeats the purpose of working towards something, and 4th has taken a lot of working towards something away from the game and just gives you everything except for passing dice rolls.

I think part of the fun of a PC is taking nothing and through decisions and luck be able to make something from them including a hero in the eyes of the world they are playing in.

The PCs should start out with more inherent potential than the average many in the world, but no so much that the average man is not also able to start adventuring. So the actions of the PC should be what makes him a hero above the average man.

 

[bagger245]

The designers made the sweet spot from level 1, so basically we are playing a
level-4 3.5ed as a level-1 4th ed. Yeah, some like the struggling few hitpoints character who dies
over a rat or failing a save vs poison. Those are the ones who went back to older
editions.
Its all about preference and 4th ed caters to people who love being powerful over the
average commoner and the fact that they have "more things to do in combat" now.

 

[dystmesis]

Seeing as how the only statted commoners in 4e are _level 2_, player characters actually start off at a lower level than commoners in 4e...

 

[justanobody]

Seeing as how the only statted commoners in 4e are _level 2_, player characters actually start off at a lower level than commoners in 4e...

That would be keyworded commoners, rather than actual commoners that have no stats/class levels.

Every last NPC in existence would not be level 2, and the PCs having to be level 1, as a baby would then be level 2 and kill a PC with its stench diaper attack power....

There are plenty of actual commoners outside of the keyworded ones that the world would be full of.

So level 2 is the lowest class "monster" called a commoner that a PC may face (adjusting monsters up down can change this to level 1, etc), but everyone else the PCs will probably not meet in any way to have to need stats or levels.

Oh the naming conventions in 4th...got to love them cross-defined terms.