How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[billd91]

I don't think anyone is saying the math is complex. What it is is a lot of dull, simple arithmetic that's hard for some folks to concentrate on when they're gaming, particularly if it's late on a work night, they've been drinking, or both.

Somehow, I don't think that kind of player is going to find keeping track of all of the conditional bonuses and feats in paragon/epic tier 4e easy either.

Aside from the invulnerability to things like dispel magic, I don't think 4e is any improvement in this regard.

 

[Mallus]

Somehow, I don't think that kind of player is going to find keeping track of all of the conditional bonuses and feats in paragon/epic tier 4e easy either.

Possibly. I'll let you know my experience when we get there. Currently my group's only 7th.

 

[alleynbard]

Two of the groups I joined a while back used a system of rotating DMs. By its nature, the DMs routinely ceded control to others.

As DM I try to involve the other players with "world building", because I do not want to control everything, just act as referee.

Different playing styles makes the world go around.

The control freak part was mostly a joke. Mostly.

I allow the other players to world build as well. They have an active interest in the world and deserve to be apart of that process.

I have suggested rotating DMs. No one else really wants to do it. With their families, work, and other responsibilities they say they would never have time. They are likely right. Since my responsibilities are things that can be easily molded around game prep time, it makes me the natural choice.

 

[Mournblade94]

I don't think anyone is saying the math is complex. What it is is a lot of dull, simple arithmetic that's hard for some folks to concentrate on when they're gaming, particularly if it's late on a work night, they've been drinking, or both.

I was simply responding to a sarcastic comment.

 

[Mournblade94]

Somehow, I don't think that kind of player is going to find keeping track of all of the conditional bonuses and feats in paragon/epic tier 4e easy either.

Aside from the invulnerability to things like dispel magic, I don't think 4e is any improvement in this regard.

Very well said! Have some experience points.

 

[hong]

Somehow, I don't think that kind of player is going to find keeping track of all of the conditional bonuses and feats in paragon/epic tier 4e easy either.

They will, because

1) there are fewer of them, unless you go out of your way to find conditional stuff, in which case it's your own lookout.

2) bonuses are either one-off things, not extending beyond one round, or last until the end of the encounter. You never have to track rounds remaining or other such minutiae.

3) you do not have cascading bonuses to worry about.

Aside from the invulnerability to things like dispel magic, I don't think 4e is any improvement in this regard.

It certainly is, for the reasons stated above.

Now that said, you managed to miss the REAL source of complexity in how stats vary over the course of a 4E encounter: conditions, marking and striker damage. Tracking which of 5 orcs is weakened, which is stunned and which is dazed, as well as who the paladin has marked and who the fighter has marked (and that they can't be the same orc), and who the ranger and rogue are targeting, can bring a session to its knees. The solution is to use visual aids for these, like markers, counters, and so on.

 

[LostSoul]

The problem with my current 4.0E game is that the fighter types never want to wait. In a group of six, two fighters and a cleric always charge into battle with planning. I know this frustrates the DM too, who has made efforts not to have them killed.

Ah. Maybe your DM needs to think more strategically!

This time that means that, in order to get good use out of rituals, he should design the dungeons so there are a lot of opportunities for their use.

 

[D'karr]

The problem with my current 4.0E game is that the fighter types never want to wait. In a group of six, two fighters and a cleric always charge into battle with planning. I know this frustrates the DM too, who has made efforts not to have them killed.

Maybe the DM should give those 3 what they deserve and kill them. Then you can talk strategy...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Maybe the DM should give those 3 what they deserve and kill them. Then you can talk strategy...

It all depends on what the players want from the game. I they love the "Charge and Attack" and have this lead to success, you might have to adapt to it, and make combats "simpler".

I am not sure 3E or 4E are the right games for this type of play - not because it's impossible to play them that "simple", but simply because you ignore most of these games strength and complexity. But the end goal is to have an entertaining event at the game table, not becoming a tactical and strategic mastermind.

 

[Storminator]

It all depends on what the players want from the game. I they love the "Charge and Attack" and have this lead to success, you might have to adapt to it, and make combats "simpler".

We frequently charge in. Sometimes we sit around and discuss strategy and options and conclude that we should charge in.

My PC is famous for leading the charge. Once we had a plan that was "after the dwarf (me) drops in combat, we'll lure the enemies forward, and heal the dwarf behind them!" That old saying "the plan never survives contact with the enemy" that's a load of bull. My plans always survive contact with the enemy. That's probably because "contact with the enemy" is a large percentage of my plan!

I am not sure 3E or 4E are the right games for this type of play - not because it's impossible to play them that "simple", but simply because you ignore most of these games strength and complexity. But the end goal is to have an entertaining event at the game table, not becoming a tactical and strategic mastermind.

Even tho we start brawls without a lot of forethought, we end up utilizing every inch of strategic complexity in our games... usually to get us out of the mess I've gotten us into.

PS