How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Piratecat]

The owner of the local store is a friend of mine, so he asked me to run the Delve Nights. I had run the Sewers of Silence sample for 8th level characters, and there were six players instead of five. I plan on running the next Delve Nights in May.

What store do you run it at? Sounds fun.

 

[Hereticus]

What store do you run it at? Sounds fun.

The Gamers Grotto
337 Main Street
Bennington, VT, 05201
1-802-447-0091

Proprietor: Keith

I will be running the official Delve Nights at the store, starting Thursday night (May 07) at 6:00.

 

[LostSoul]

The owner of the local store is a friend of mine, so he asked me to run the Delve Nights. I had run the Sewers of Silence sample for 8th level characters, and there were six players instead of five. I plan on running the next Delve Nights in May. The players used Water Walking and Speak With Dead.

Is that the one with the Yuan-Ti?

In that one there's a well that links to the final room which a badass can move through. I had already cast Tenser's Floating Disc and I used it to cover the well - the DM allowed me to make an Int vs. Fort check to block the creature that rose from it.

I almost cast a Magic Circle vs. Natural creatures over the main door but then we wouldn't be able to get through. If I had taken the time to explore the well, I would have cast it over that!

 

[Piratecat]

Thanks - I have a friend up that way. I'll mention it to him.

 

[Intense_Interest]

I challenge the notion that the simplified math somehow makes 4e superior. That is the purpose to all of my posts.

And I challenge it with my own experience and the underlying notion that the game, being a social atmosphere, has no need for isolated calculation immediately before, during, or outside of combat. 4E eliminates the extended impact of vaguely named bonuses that danced through a Caster's spells-per-day listing that we had in 3E: What is "Divine Power", really? +6 to Strength bonus isn't discretely anything Divine or Powerful. Is Cat's Grace a term of physical attributes or psycho-cultural? Instead, we have Stunned, which is agreeably Stunned and only Stunned in a method different from Dazed, Slowed, and Prone.

Simplified math and phraseology is a virtue of a clean and robust system, and my group uses 4E in lieu of other D&D-likes because of this.

 

[Hereticus]

Is that the one with the Yuan-Ti?

In that one there's a well that links to the final room which a badass can move through. I had already cast Tenser's Floating Disc and I used it to cover the well - the DM allowed me to make an Int vs. Fort check to block the creature that rose from it.

I almost cast a Magic Circle vs. Natural creatures over the main door but then we wouldn't be able to get through. If I had taken the time to explore the well, I would have cast it over that!

I would've cast Floating Disk, that has always been a favorite of mine.

There was no built in Yuan-Ti, but if there was one give credit to your DM for addition.

I had added a Rakshasa. One player was running a Deva, so when two other characters entered town they came upon a humanoid who had just murdered a peasant. The murderer ran off, but was well dressed, and the victim was some poor slob. When the two characters investigated the body they noticed odd claw marks and found a gold holy symbol. That holy symbol just happened to be from the deity worshipped by the Deva Cleric.

They took the symbol, but left the body. When the group met at the tavern, they discussed their trip, and the holy symbol. It was identified as magic, but they could not identify the enchantment. The Deva Cleric asked for the symbol, and it was given to him. It happened to be a locating device for the Rakshasa that placed it.

Anyway, it did not play into the adventure, but it was a possible hook for the future.

 

[Mournblade94]

+

=
Bwuh?

It seems that you are quite clearly saying that, between two identical games, you would prefer one where you have to do arithmetic.

I do not consider 4e and 3rd edition identical. The calculations are indeed ONE not the ONLY thing I liked about D&D. I do not see how this is in any way difficult to believe. CHemists actually like stochiometry.

Not that middle school level arithmetic is the only reason you enjoy the game, of course, but simply that you prefer the presence of middle school level arithmetic to its absence.

4e has middle school level arithmetic as well.

But no, I feel the level of arithmetic in 3rd edition gives me a better simulation of the situations I want. I like the simple arithmetic as it is applied to the seed variables because it gives me a better simulation. I am not enjoying it for the sake of rote arithmetic. I enjoy it because I feel it gives a better simulation. I do not understand what is difficult to believe about that, and if I did not make that clear in earlier posts I apologize.

I just have trouble buying it. It seems an outlandish claim, the sort of thing someone says during a heated argument but which they do not actually mean.

Perhaps then the post above clarified. 4e bonuses do nto give me the technical simulation I want. (this is not the only reason I do not like 4e).

Much like claiming that the reason you like watching football is because of the fun you get balancing your checkbook after you buy tickets. Obviously balancing your checkbook isn't onerous, and shouldn't stop you from buying tickets, but it seems questionable to highlight it as one of the good parts.

I don't see how the statement above is analogous.

Even if you are totally serious and you mean your words exactly as you have said them, I have to ask: do you believe that your opinion on this matter, that simple algebra improves fantasy gaming in and of itself simply because of the entertainment value of math, is represented amongst the population of gamers significantly enough that anyone should do anything about it? Or is it more in line with people who believe that what D&D really needs is book covers made out of mink? An honestly expressed opinion, but which hopefully even those who hold it recognize as an outlier?

1) I do not know anyone that feels that math in any edition of D&D is difficult.

2) The math was enjoyable simply to place a value on a character effect. Analyzing how things aided or hindered that effect I found enjoyable.

Does any of this mean I think 4e needs to be redesigned? No.

It is my opinion, that math and technicality add to gaming. I am not the only one that thinks this, though I never claimed to be in a majority. I think it significantly a more relevant opinion than the exaggeration of book covers made out of mink.

 

[Mournblade94]

And I challenge it with my own experience and the underlying notion that the game, being a social atmosphere, has no need for isolated calculation immediately before, during, or outside of combat. 4E eliminates the extended impact of vaguely named bonuses that danced through a Caster's spells-per-day listing that we had in 3E: What is "Divine Power", really? +6 to Strength bonus isn't discretely anything Divine or Powerful. Is Cat's Grace a term of physical attributes or psycho-cultural? Instead, we have Stunned, which is agreeably Stunned and only Stunned in a method different from Dazed, Slowed, and Prone.

Simplified math and phraseology is a virtue of a clean and robust system, and my group uses 4E in lieu of other D&D-likes because of this.

It can certainly depend on what reason you are gaming. There are plenty of times I have gamed for the game, and was not concerned about the social atmosphere. Quite honestly I game for the game itself rather than the social atmosphere. I have my main group which I have een running with since 1988. That is as much social as gaming. WHen I am running a game in the gamestore, I am there for the game.

 

[Hereticus]

It can certainly depend on what reason you are gaming. There are plenty of times I have gamed for the game, and was not concerned about the social atmosphere. Quite honestly I game for the game itself rather than the social atmosphere. I have my main group which I have been running with since 1988. That is as much social as gaming. When I am running a game in the game store, I am there for the game.

For the most part, I have only gamed for the social atmosphere, the interaction between people in a fantasy setting.

Which I guess is why I have never played a video game.

 

[Gort]

Which I guess is why I have never played a video game.

You're missing out. LAN parties where you get a bunch of friends to bring their computers round to your place and play some games all night are a ton of fun. You get your "social atmosphere" fix that way too.