How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Henry]

Actually, no. Clerics & Druids have NEVER used spells due to using a a "mystical artform/science". Their magic was bestowed by their deity. What were you playing in '78

AD&D PHB & DMG -- the same book that said they had to have their hands free, possess material components, be able to speak in a clear voice, and said they needed at least 4 to 8 hours of sleep to be able to get their spells back -- just like the Magic-Users. Where the magic came from is irrelevant to whether it was a "Mystical Artform" or not - it didn't matter if your deity approved or not because if you were bound, or couldn't sleep enough, or didn't have the live spider or tin-can telephone in addition to your holy symbol, you weren't going to cast that spell. So Magic in D&D in regards to the magic players have available, regardless of flavor text source, was always codified and scientific in approach, even with divine casters.

Now, you could get into the "special case stuff" that Gary Talked about in the DMG, like coming up with a laundry list of beholder eyes and cockatrice blood, etc. for making certain things, but such magic was never a given in the default game, and Gary purposefully made those rules the way he did to as to let DMs be as hard-hosed or easy as they wanted to be when PCs wanted something not straight out of the PHB or given to them by the DM from the DMG lists. I wouldn't even consider it a "system", because there were only loose guidelines -- not a bad thing in itself, but as far as the players were concerned it was totally out of their hands.

 

[Mallus]

I'm talking more about abilities like come and get it or powers that move others about without a physical shove. A compulsion that forces enemies to rush toward you is magical/supernatural. These abilities work regardless of language, or the presence of a mind so no mundane explanation fits.

Powers like that don't represent anything in the game world. They give the player limited control over the game narrative, letting them, in some small way, be DM for a moment.

For example, Come and Get It isn't the Jedi Mind Trick or a charm spell. When a player uses it, his opponents decide to rush in. It's not magic, it's metafiction. It's the reader deciding what a character does next.

Same with those forced movement powers. Instead of complicated rules for knockback, staggering, shoving, and what have you, you get the simplified pull, push, slide powers. If you take a step back and look at the results of those powers, you'll find D&D combat that's finally as kinetic as a cinematic fight scene (and not the Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots tableaux produced be the previous edition).

(this, by the way, is the perfect explanation for how those powers work)

 

[Scribble]

Are you saying that if a guy in a robe mutters some words of power, and waves a wand and POOF: a rabbit appears then its magic?

but:

That a guy in armor, swings a sword and strikes a goblin, and POOF: a rabbit appears, then it isn't magic?

Is the window dressing really that much more important than substance of what happens to most people?

I don't know about most people, I was answering for myself. (Since you asked me.)

For me, Magic and Mundane can have similar (or exact) game effects. It's the description that really makes it different for me.

PC: "Eyeahallo mak thorata! Mortok the Magnificent waves his hands in an intricate pattern before the eyss of his enemy, and with but a few short words forces them to move closer to him!" (Slide 3 squares closer to me.)

DM: You see a look of fear on their eyes, as your enemies suddenly begin to move towards you unable to will their limbs to stop!

****

PC: "I Am Horthgar Son of Untgar! Will none fight me?!?! Are you so afraid?!? Horthgar opens his arms wide, leaving his chest exposed, darring his enemies to attack. (Slide 3 squares closer to me.)

DM: With rage in their eyes, your enemies move towards you confident in their ability to make you pay for your arrogance!

People do things in real life all the time that seem strange or even down right silly when looked at rationally. It's not magic, just emotions driving us to do weird things. Look at message board trolls- are they using magic to get people to respond?

In the above, Horthgar didn't use magic to compell his foes... He just yelled at them, and deep down inside they probably knew attacking him was stupid- but dude... that guy ain't makin us look like chumps! Let's get im!

Like a player does something and "poof" they are healed? Or, a character does something and an enemy is "compelled" to behave in a certain way?

Yep, magic.

Sooo... someone who is suggestible is being acted upon by magic?

 

[ExploderWizard]

You say this like it's a bad thing.

Its not completely a bad thing, it just doesn't feel like D&D anymore.
Sometimes, I like to play just a regular fighter.
I don't always want to be SUPERDEFENDERMAN of the Marvel/Greyhawk universe.

 

[Kask]

Powers like that don't represent anything in the game world. They give the player limited control over the game narrative, letting them, in some small way, be DM for a moment.

What? Where did you see that in the rules?

Control weather isn't magic either. It just lets the player take over determining the local weather from the DM. LOL

 

[Scribble]

Really what I like about th new powers system is that you can explain it however you'd like. The game isn't really forcing its own interpretation/division on you.

You CAN say that the martial power source is another form of magic if you'd like. Leaving room for greek hero type characters with supernatural powers beyond the mere mortal, but not achieved through the "sorcerous arts."

Or you can define them with mundane effects, or reasons. Or you can do both, and handle it through description. Or you can do both, and leave some powers to the "supernatural" players, and some to the mundane players.

It's mutable and therefore something I like.

 

[ExploderWizard]

PC: "I Am Horthgar Son of Untgar! Will none fight me?!?! Are you so afraid?!? Horthgar opens his arms wide, leaving his chest exposed, darring his enemies to attack. (Slide 3 squares closer to me.)

DM: With rage in their eyes, your enemies move towards you confident in their ability to make you pay for your arrogance!

I have no problem with this scenario. If Horthgar's enemies are mindless zombies or constructs and it still works, then there is a problem.

 

[Mallus]

Correct. In prior edition core rules this could only be accomplished with "magic". 4.0 has simply redefined the word. So, in 4.0, all characters have magic abilities, if viewed from prior editions.

This is incorrect.

In previous editions, a fighter could taunt an opponent and the DM could decide to have the opponent close in. This is what Come and Get It does. The difference is that in 4e, using that power, the player gets to decide if the opponent closes in, albeit only once per day (or encounter, I forget...).

Say it with me... it's not magic, it's direct control over the narrative.

 

[Mallus]

What? Where did you see that in the rules?

Do you need everything spelled out for you?

Which explanation makes more sense? Mine, or the line of reasoning that says powers like CaGI must represent some form of deliberately unspecified magic/psychic mojo, despite they fact they're labeled 'martial exploits' (and never once referring to as magical powers).

Control weather isn't magic either.

Which 4e power are you referring to? Or are you referring to a previous edition and a different set of assumptions?

 

[Mallus]

Its not completely a bad thing, it just doesn't feel like D&D anymore.

I hear you. I guess I just don't mind it...

I don't always want to be SUPERDEFENDERMAN of the Marvel/Greyhawk universe.

My groups seem to end up playing those guys no matter what edition we play.