How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[fanboy2000]

Apples and oranges. One is RP and the DM still controls the NPC. The other is a magical effect that compels and the PC controls. If you REALLY can't distinguish the ACTUAL difference then, there is no reason to discuss...

Are you sure this isn't open up to interpretation?

Luke, you will find that a great many of the truths we cling to depend on "a certain point of view."

 

[Mallus]

If you REALLY can't distinguish the ACTUAL difference then, there is no reason to discuss...

You'll note that you're the one having trouble recognizing that not all the game rules model something in the game world. Or at least you aren't getting the relationship right.

Why insist an effect is magic when the rules do not state that?

 

[billd91]

Powers like that don't represent anything in the game world. They give the player limited control over the game narrative, letting them, in some small way, be DM for a moment.

You know, I don't have a problem with things like encounter powers causing minor effects in combat - a shift here, a push there, a distraction, extra damage and a penalty. I have no trouble with that at all. A good combatant should be able to manipulate his targets, within reason, with his own skill, no save necessary largely because that's the point of needing a successful to hit roll.

But describing these effects as giving the players little bits of narrative control is something I don't buy. If you want to give them narrative control, give them a way to actually change the plot, determine where clues can be found, how NPCs are connected. Giving them little benefits in combat, particularly for more damage or little benefits that amount to minor position changes or bonuses, and calling it narrative control just doesn't make much sense to me. For one thing, it's not a heck of a lot of control since your ability to apply it generally relies on a successful attack roll.

I particularly have a hard time respecting the argument of narrative control for the dailies. And this is partly because you have the two types of combat - martial and magical - both shoehorned into the same structure. I've heard people argue that the daily particularly represents narrative control in the way the PC, once a game day, wrests a significant amount of control from the DM and produces a more powerful effect than their encounter powers. Even if that did make sense for the martial powers, it really doesn't for the daily spells. Unless someone really thinks that casting a fireball (in any edition) constitutes asserting narrative control - which I simply can't see. It's just an attack with a broader area of effect - it always has been - with respect to the narrative of the game.

 

[Cadfan]

Nope. It can only see something there to attack. It is mindless, thus can't be insulted, taunted etc,. Like a virus. It can't look at the potential host and decide it looks defenseless...

You made that up.

I'm not saying its a bad way for zombies to work.

But you still made it up.

 

[Kask]

Why insist an effect is magic when the rules do not state that?

I stated that looking at it from prior editions, it would be magic. 4.0 rules set could consider it flatulence. That's not what I'm referring to.

 

[Scribble]

Nope. It can only see something there to attack. It is mindless, thus can't be insulted, taunted etc,. Like a virus. It can't look at the potential host and decide it looks defenseless...

Someone can still attract the attention of the zombie/skeleton/construct enough that it looses focus on what it was originally doing, and moves to attack them. If it's mindless then it's going to forget the first "goal" it had in favor of following it's base programing. "Kill that thing."

(And incidently Viruses and cellular level things communicate and "think" much more then you seem to know.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Once players start deciding what the NPC's do its a group storytelling session and you don't really even need any rules or dice for that.

Yes, you do need rules for that. Because there are conflicts between what one player wants and what another player wants. Rules allow you solve these conflicts. It's still the same reason you need rules in the first place. "Bang bang, you're dead." "Not dead! I have bullet-proof armor!" "But I shot you in the head!" "You didn't say that!".

 

[Mallus]

If the power works due to reasons you described then yes it does. The players decide what thier characters do. Once players start deciding what the NPC's do its a group storytelling session and you don't really even need any rules or dice for that.

OK, I see where you're coming from. Mind you, powers like CaGI have a very limited scope (combat) and effect (mainly repositioning). They don't allow the players to take control of NPC's to the degree that the game becomes a dice-less collaborative storytelling exercise.

In fact, they have nothing to do with enhancing the story part of D&D at all. They're just another way of abstracting combat in order to create tactically interesting situations.

 

[Mallus]

I stated that looking at it from prior editions, it would be magic.

Looking at it from prior editions, it would be a mechanic borrowed from newer, non-D&D rule systems, ones that are more up-front about conferring narrative power to players.

 

[Mallus]

For one thing, it's not a heck of a lot of control since your ability to apply it generally relies on a successful attack roll.

I'm only out to provide what seems to me to be an obvious rationale for certain kinds of 4e powers. Why the system doesn't confer narrative authority more broadly is a whole other discussion.

I've heard people argue that the daily particularly represents narrative control in the way the PC, once a game day, wrests a significant amount of control from the DM and produces a more powerful effect than their encounter powers.

Sounds reasonable to me.

Unless someone really thinks that casting a fireball (in any edition) constitutes asserting narrative control - which I simply can't see.

Why not? What are spells other that little prepackaged bits of narrative control ("I take over his mind", "I make him burn"). What the heck else are they?