How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[UngainlyTitan]

I have no problem with this scenario. If Horthgar's enemies are mindless zombies or constructs and it still works, then there is a problem.

That is a price I am perfectly willing to play to get a more cinematic combat without a string of subsystems for every creature type under the sun and a relatively simple combat system. Much prefer it to what was there before.

Thinking further.. Golems, yeah, but zombies attack anything that attracts their attention. So if Horthgar roars at the zombies what is wrong with them going for them.

Even with golems, it depends on the aggro algorithms their creator programmed with.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Powers like that don't represent anything in the game world. They give the player limited control over the game narrative, letting them, in some small way, be DM for a moment.

For example, Come and Get It isn't the Jedi Mind Trick or a charm spell. When a player uses it, his opponents decide to rush in. It's not magic, it's metafiction. It's the reader deciding what a character does next.

Exactly. The game world, consistency, and logic take a back seat to atificially constructed claptrap designed only for the purpose of providing special effects for the game board. When the game rules become more about what happens on the battlemat than what happens in the game world, its time to call it a wargame and be done with it.

Not everyone plays to tell a shared story. Some people play to roleplay thier character in a fictional world and whatever happens during thier adventures becomes the story.

 

[Storm Raven]

Okay, here’s an exercise for everyone! Here’s a level 19 Cleric with a Prestige Class! This is from Dungeon 136.

Sesorya Girgul CR 19
LE Medium humanoid
Libris Mortis 46
Init +3; Senses dark vision 60 ft, Listen +7, Spot +18
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
Aura desecrate 20-ft

AC 26, touch 9, flat-footed 26
HP 127 (19 HD) DR 3/-
Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +20

Spd 20 ft, fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee +18/+13/+8 +4 frost human bane Morningstar (1d8+5 plus 1d6 cold plus 2d6 vs. humans)

Base Atk +13 Grp +14
Combat Gear potion of barkskin (+5)
Special Action death touch 1 day (9d6), rebuke undead 5/day (+4, 2d6+21, 19th), summon undead 5/day

Cleric Spells (CL 18th, +12 ranged)
Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments cast and included in the stat block. Other spells are not mentioned to save space and my time.

Abilities Str 12, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 14

Special abilities and Feats not detailed in order to save more space and time.

Skills Concentration +24, Spellcraft +22, Spot +18

Items +1 frost human bane Morningstar, +3 heavy shield, adamantine full plate, cape of the mountain bank, carpet of flying (5ft by 5ft), goggles of night, periapt of Wisdom +6, phylactery of desecration, ring of invisibility, ring of mind shielding.

Now break out your PHBs and a timer and see how long it takes you to apply the buffs listed in her tactics section!

Tactics: Sesorya drinks her potion of barkskin before entering combat and casts greater spell immunity (horrid willing, power word blind, disintegrate, flesh to stone), protection from energy (fire, cold, and electricity), spell resistance, true seeing, bear’s endurance, cat’s grace, death ward, aid, shield of faith, unholy aura, divine power, prayer, and divine favor, then summons a pair of dread wraiths (this summon power is from her Prestige Class) and attacks.

Okay.


Sesorya Girgul CR 19
LE Medium humanoid
Libris Mortis 46
Init +5; Senses dark vision 60 ft, Listen +8, Spot +19
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Infernal
Aura desecrate 20-ft

AC 38, touch 16, flat-footed 36
HP 193+1d8 (19 HD) DR 3/-
Fort +18, Ref +14, Will +25

Spd 20 ft, fly 40 ft. (average)
Melee +30/+25/+20/+15 +4 frost human bane Morningstar (1d8+8 plus 1d6 cold plus 2d6 vs. humans)

Base Atk +18 Grp +21
Special Action death touch 1 day (9d6), rebuke undead 5/day (+4, 2d6+21, 19th), summon undead 5/day

Cleric Spells (CL 18th, +19 ranged)
Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments cast and included in the stat block. Other spells are not mentioned to save space and my time.

Abilities Str 18, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 24, Cha 14

Special abilities and Feats not detailed in order to save more space and time.

Skills Concentration +27, Spellcraft +23, Spot +19

Items +1 frost human bane Morningstar, +3 heavy shield, adamantine full plate, cape of the mountain bank, carpet of flying (5ft by 5ft), goggles of night, periapt of Wisdom +6, phylactery of desecration, ring of invisibility, ring of mind shielding.

SR 26, also SR 25 v. good spells (only comes into play if spell resistance is dispelled)
120 resistance to fire, electricity, and cold
foes suffer - to attacks, weapon damage, saves, and skill checks
good creatures who hit her suffer 1d6 Strength damage, Fort DC 25 negates

It took about five minutes using the SRD. I wouldn't do it on the fly if I were DMing her as a villain though. I'd have her statted up with and without her buffs.

 

[Mallus]

Exactly. The game world, consistency, and logic take a back seat to atificially constructed claptrap...

You know, I feel exactly the same way about dungeons... to each his own

Not everyone plays to tell a shared story. Some people play to roleplay thier character in a fictional world and whatever happens during thier adventures becomes the story.

Sure. But this has nothing to do with objecting to powers like CaGI, does it?

 

[Henry]

I have no problem with this scenario. If Horthgar's enemies are mindless zombies or constructs and it still works, then there is a problem.

I could still see it - even if it were mindless, it still has enough combat awareness to attack a vulnerable foe, wouldn't it? Even a Romero Zombie has that much going for it. And some fool standing with his arms wide open would be an easier target. Anybody else untrained in such ruses would instead be giving combat advantage to the mindless foe because they just dropped their guard instead of just appearing to be open.

 

[Scribble]

I have no problem with this scenario. If Horthgar's enemies are mindless zombies or constructs and it still works, then there is a problem.

Sure- this is one of the things that I feel is like "coming home" to the game system I grew up loving.

Certain effects might seem wonky to various groups. If so, it's up the the DM to use his/her judgement to make an ultimate ruling. If using those effects makes the game less enjoyable to the group, then it shouldn't be used in that fashion. You play the game, the game doesn't play you.

I think it's important for the game to leave certain areas open to DM/Group interpretation for this very reason. It's impossible for the writer to know every group, so only make rules "ingrained" as much as you have to.

As for "mindless" again that's a bit open to interpretation.

Zombies, constructs, oozes- whatever... I assume they have some sort of basic "functioning" that responds to stimulus. So Horthgar simply screams loud enough that it shifts the things focus to him.

Zombie: "Must kill living... must kill living..."

Horthgar "RAGAGAGAGAGAGAAGAHHHHHHHH"

Zombie: "Must kill THAT living..."

It's like a cat or soemthing... You move anything fast enough near them and suddenly they stop whatever they were doing and attack. Not magic at all, but you still kind of "forced" the cat to attack.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You know, I feel exactly the same way about dungeons... to each his own

Ya know, for the most part I'm with you on this one.

Sure. But this has nothing to do with objecting to powers like CaGI, does it?

If the power works due to reasons you described then yes it does. The players decide what thier characters do. Once players start deciding what the NPC's do its a group storytelling session and you don't really even need any rules or dice for that.

 

[jbear]

I'm not sure why the thread has derailed into 'Is math's fun' (around page 8 where I got very bored and stopped reading).

To address the OP's question, to which game system is magic more important; I think magic is more important to 3rd ed. In 4th ed it's very easy to make a well balanced and dangerous party with a healer, all from martial classes.

Does that necessarily imply that 4ed magic cant be as versatile and as fun, or as awesome as 3ed? I don't think it has to be. My imagination broadened greatly after reading how LostSoul was using combat powers in out of combat situations, even during skill challenges with skill checks.

I think sometimes we put our own limitations on things.

It's definitely not the world-changing reality bending magic that you might find in a Wish, but it can still be used creatively and awesomely if the DM doesn't limit the play by: 'What you are trying is not covered in the rules with that power, so you can't do it.'

I would love to have some concrete guidelines to achieve LostSouls awesome style of DMing 4e. I try my best to allow my players to think outside the box with their resources. I want everyone to be able to do awesome things, be they the man in the pointy hat or the hulking brute standing in front of him. I have very new players and achieving that is not always easy.

I think the OP's question and complaint is an interesting and valid one. It's a shame it turned into an argument over maths. I think it's a question that should be explored and indeed WotC should address with someone like LostSoul doing an article and expand his DM style into concrete guidelines for superior DMing, focusing on the use of powers in non-combat situations.

 

[Kask]

This is incorrect.

In previous editions, a fighter could taunt an opponent and the DM could decide to have the opponent close in.

Apples and oranges. One is RP and the DM still controls the NPC. The
other is a magical effect that compels and the PC controls. If you REALLY can't distinguish the ACTUAL difference then, there is no reason to discuss...

 

[Kask]

I could still see it - even if it were mindless, it still has enough combat awareness to attack a vulnerable foe, wouldn't it?

Nope. It can only see something there to attack. It is mindless, thus can't be insulted, taunted etc,. Like a virus. It can't look at the potential host and decide it looks defenseless...