How to add more sorcery points?

[Maxperson]

It is not just the books, it is the published modules, it is gaming conventions, etc., etc. I have played with plenty of groups in which combat is a small part of the at table experience -- just not with D&D. The reason is that most of the features that define a class are combat focused -- especially in this version of the game.

Same thing, really. I'm getting ready to run Hoard of the Dragon queen. The first chapter has a bunch of encounters and that's virtually all it gives me. However, the players are going to have to talk to the NPCs a lot to find out information and what the mini-quests are. I could gloss that over and make this a 90/10 combat/social chapter. I'm not, though. The encounters are the hard part, so that's what the module gives. There will be lots of back and forth with the NPCs, since the social side is not as complicated as combat and as the DM it's my job to provide that PC/NPC interaction, not the module's job.

The fact that you want to change how the Sorcerer class works demonstrates that D&D isn't the best system for limited combat groups as the Sorcerer class is all about combat and has little utility outside of it. It seems to me that if you want to tweak the Sorcerer class, they should have more out of combat utility perhaps by granting some utility spells for the subclasses in much the same way clerics get domain spells.

I don't want to change it. The OP wants to change it and I was just giving suggestions.

 

[WaterRabbit]

The encounters are the hard part, so that's what the module gives. There will be lots of back and forth with the NPCs, since the social side is not as complicated as combat and as the DM it's my job to provide that PC/NPC interaction, not the module's job.

To me it is just the opposite. Building interesting social encounters is far more work than combat encounters. Most of my time building a combat encounter is just drawing the map and adding interesting details so player can make use of the environment. Running them can be time consuming though.

However, building interesting social encounters where the DM isn't just talking to himself? That requires developing all of the hooks into society for each NPC and keeping track of what each NPC knows and what information they have previously imparted. It requires juggling all of this information across multiple sessions and keeping the players reminded of it. It also requires keeping NPCs memorable so the players don't forget who they are.

To me the social layer is far more complex to manage which is why so little is presented in published D&D material compare to other RPGs. It is also the part of the game where you can spend a lot of time making something only to have it easily derailed. An example of this is in a Curse of Strahd game I am running I have tried three times to introduce Rictavio to my players and every time they have just walked right past or ignored him.

CoS is also unusually detailed compared to most D&D modules on the relationships between the NPCs. The Mad Mage's Dungeon is more like how a typical D&D module is set up.

On the other hand, CoS is sparse on NPC details compared to a typical Vampire the Masquerade adventure. VtM adventures are usually light on combat encounter details instead. Shadowrun is usually in between with most of the focus on the environment.

I don't want to change it. The OP wants to change it and I was just giving suggestions.

Oops, my bad hard to keep track of who wants to change what.

 

[clearstream]

...the Sorcerer class is all about combat and has little utility outside of it. It seems to me that if you want to tweak the Sorcerer class, they should have more out of combat utility perhaps by granting some utility spells for the subclasses in much the same way clerics get domain spells.

They do have some metamagic that seems well suited for out-of-combat. I'm thinking of "Subtle" and "Extended" spell. The former seems questionable in combat (don't mind me, I have nothing to do with that fireball exploding on you).

The game is certainly combat oriented. Still, I think room exists for sorcerer to be good out of combat, especially in the social pillar with their high charisma.

 

[Maxperson]

To me it is just the opposite. Building interesting social encounters is far more work than combat encounters. Most of my time building a combat encounter is just drawing the map and adding interesting details so player can make use of the environment. Running them can be time consuming though.

However, building interesting social encounters where the DM isn't just talking to himself? That requires developing all of the hooks into society for each NPC and keeping track of what each NPC knows and what information they have previously imparted. It requires juggling all of this information across multiple sessions and keeping the players reminded of it. It also requires keeping NPCs memorable so the players don't forget who they are.

We all have our strengths, and a combat encounter requires me to figure out the monsters, where they are, what treasure they have, hit points(since I don't generally just use the average), any special equipment they might have based on the environment, and more. I'm really good at improving NPCs, though, and figuring out what they know, don't know, or might know(requires a roll) is second nature to me and requires very little time to accomplish. Social interactions are very, very easy for me.

To me the social layer is far more complex to manage which is why so little is presented in published D&D material compare to other RPGs. It is also the part of the game where you can spend a lot of time making something only to have it easily derailed. An example of this is in a Curse of Strahd game I am running I have tried three times to introduce Rictavio to my players and every time they have just walked right past or ignored him.

And I've built encounters that the players have just bypassed. No encounter plan survives first contact with the players, and many never even get to first contact. I've learned to just let things go. If they don't engage, that opportunity is gone unless they bring themselves back around to it.

CoS is also unusually detailed compared to most D&D modules on the relationships between the NPCs. The Mad Mage's Dungeon is more like how a typical D&D module is set up.

I'll have to take your word for it. I don't usually like to run premade stuff, so I don't know anything about either of those modules. The only one I've looked at is Hoard of the Dragon Queen and there will be a lot of social interaction in it.

Oops, my bad hard to keep track of who wants to change what.

It's easy to lose track of who says what in threads. No worries!

 

[clearstream]

I am working on an alternate sorcerer to accomplish two things, distinguish it more from wizards and make subclasses feel more distinct.

One of my approaches is to do more with sorcery points. I am giving more metamagic as well as subclass specific abilities that use them.

This runs even harder into the sorcerer's resource management problem. I am looking for suggestions on how to provide more sorcery points to play with without letting a character just using them all for spells.

Is it class-destroying to remove flexible casting and just give a arcane recovery mechanic?

What is your experience in play? Are your characters valuing spell slots much more than metamagic? Finding the right tweaks to address that can be helped by first analysing the existing parameters.

Slot level
1st = 2 = one 1st slot (at level 2) = two Twinned 1st spells
2nd = 3 = one 2nd slot (at level 3) = one Twinned 2nd + one Twinned 1st spell
3rd = 5 = one 3rd slot (at level 5) = one Twinned 3rd + one Twined 2nd spell
4th = 6 = one 4th slot (at level 7) = one Twinned 4th + one Twinned 3rd spell
5th = 7 = one 5th slot + one 1st slot (at level 9) = one Twinned 5th + one Twinned 4th spell

Thinking about those same character levels in terms of total SP (converting all slots) -

Character level
2nd = 6+2 = 8
3rd = 8+6+3 = 17
5th = 8+9+10+5 = 32
7th = 8+9+15+6+7 = 45
9th = 8+9+15+18+7+9 = 66

A spreadsheet would do a better job of this analysis, with less chance of error. Arcane Recovery is giving half-class-level spell slots, capped at 5th level slots. So at those same levels using Arcane Recovery and then converting the slots gained would be worth -

Character level
2nd = 2
3rd = 2
5th = 3
7th = 5
9th = 6

As you can see, the number of points available from Arcane Recovery is significantly less than those available from Flexible Casting. This answers your last question, you could be heavily nerfing sorcerer if you replace Flexible Casting with Arcane Recovery. You might instead shift the game balance by increasing slot creation costs without changing conversion value. As an example -

Instinctive Magic
Starting at 2nd level, your Sorcery Points for level and costs to create spell slots with Flexible Casting, are increased by 2 points.
For example, at 2nd level you have 4 sorcery points that you can regain at the finish of a long rest, but creating a 1st level spell slot costs you 4 points.

Slot level
1st = 4 = one 1st slot (at level 2) = three Twinned 1st spells + one Twinned cantrip
2nd = 5 = one 2nd slot (at level 3) = two Twinned 2nd + one Twinned 1st spell
3rd = 7 = one 3rd slot (at level 5) = two Twinned 3rd + one Twinned 1st spell
4th = 8 = one 4th slot (at level 7) = two Twinned 4th + one Twinned 1st spell
5th = 9 = one 5th slot (at level 9) = two Twinned 5th + one Twinned 1st spell

What a sorcerer can afford in terms of spell slots doesn't change all that much, but the relative cost of metamagic is lessened. That should tempt players to use metamagic more often.

 

[CapnZapp]

It really is a blight upon this forum the way certain posters take the right to derail "how do I do X" threads with long destructive rows over "don't do X".

I really wished the mods would create and enforce a thread-crapping rule that meant that either you start a second thread "for those of us opposed to doing X" or you'd get sanctioned for filling up a thread with negative comments that drowns out the constructive discussion I am sure the OP hoped to have.

 

[CapnZapp]

On topic: add sorcery points that are reserved for specific usages. Then select usages that aren't particularly min-maxed.

Two quick examples (shooting from the hip here):

* A scroll of a medium power spell that is imbued with a few sorcery points, meaning that it is only when you use the scroll / cast that spell you get to use the points.

* An item (a talisman, say) that provides the Careful Spell metamagic (if the character doesn't already know it) and 3 sorcery points, renewed daily at dawn. The sorcery points must be used on Careful Spell metamagic.

The point is: to increase flexibility rather than raw power. This allows more sorcery points without creating as big of an unbalancing factor as points the player can minmax freely.

 

[Chaosmancer]

On topic: add sorcery points that are reserved for specific usages. Then select usages that aren't particularly min-maxed.

Two quick examples (shooting from the hip here):

* A scroll of a medium power spell that is imbued with a few sorcery points, meaning that it is only when you use the scroll / cast that spell you get to use the points.

* An item (a talisman, say) that provides the Careful Spell metamagic (if the character doesn't already know it) and 3 sorcery points, renewed daily at dawn. The sorcery points must be used on Careful Spell metamagic.

The point is: to increase flexibility rather than raw power. This allows more sorcery points without creating as big of an unbalancing factor as points the player can minmax freely.

That's kind of a nifty idea, I'll be pocketing that for the future.


Myself and a friend started working on a sorcerer homebrew a while back (it fell off because homebrewing an entire class is hard and we weren't exactly flush with free time to do so)

Some of the things we determined for ourselves:

Combining the pool of sorcerery points with a pool of spell points instead of slots felt the best to us. You don't have strict rules for "this magic power is meant for this thing" which felt very much like a natural caster. It also removed the feeling of losing out by creating spell slots or using metamagic (We have both oftn felt frustrated that by using one we limit the other)

However, we did run into some hiccups. If memory served me, at low levels it felt about the right size, but by high levels the pool was massive. He was working on finding the right numbers and progression to feel right to us.

We also wanted (probably around level 5 or so) to give the sorcerer the ability to burn hit dice to create more sorcerery points. Now, this all is predicated on another house rule we both use. HP does not recover to full after a long rest, you spend hit dice just like during a short rest and recover half HD (I allow it to be flexible when you recover that half). This means that for us, using those HD is a big deal, big enough that we even wanted to lower the chances of rolling it and getting 1 pt. I think we were leaning towards rolling and adding con mod, but I'd have to go back over our notes.

I do remember what I wanted the level 20 ability to be. I called it "Power Incarnate" and it allowed the sorcerer to (once per day) refill their entire pool (sorcery points plus spell points). Is it obscenely overpowered... yeah, it is. But for a level 20 "I might get to do this twice in a multi-year campaign" ability, I wanted it to feel epic in scope.


The other big thing was giving them more metamagic options (having only two until level 10 feels bad) but also to create more metamagic options unique to each bloodline. So Dragon sorcerers should have access to a metamagic that allows them to do X while shadow sorcerers should have access to an ability that lets them do R.

Also, we planned on some thematic spells to give them a few more spells known.



I know it can be a lot, but I feel like it is a good direction for the sorcerer. The pool plus metamagic makes it feel like they are forming spells out of thin air, an empowered fireball isn't a fireball spell plus this extra sauce, it is a completely different spell in terms of resources spent, and it might even open up some creative uses for the magical energy.

Additionally, the ability to regain spell points (and potentially far more than the wizard) at the cost of their own health feels thematic. The limit on a sorcerer's power isn't the source of magic, their blood boils with magic, the limit is how much their body can handle before getting overwhelmed.

It feels different than the other casters