Spectral Ram - the Anti-Blue Dragon
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D&D 4E How to build encounters in 4e (aka Only you can prevent Grindspace!)
- Thread starter Vayden
- Start date
Spectral Ram - the Anti-Blue Dragon
Vayden
First Post
Hello again everyone! I hope you all had a good Christmas/Winter Holiday of Your Choice. I'm back with more!
Tip #8) Use more monsters, not less
The math can easily get off/grindy if you use elites or monsters that are much higher level than the PCs. You really want the PCs to have a to-hit chance between 45-60% - even using a "boring" at-will feels a little better if you hit with it. Now obviously to-hits will vary between the party members - a rogue with a dagger is going to hit AC more often than a paladin with an axe, but the general principle holds. On the flip-side, you want your monsters to have a reasonable chance of hitting the PCs as well if you're doing as I recommend and trying to bring a reasonable amount of risk into the encounter.
Elites and Solos (esp Solos) are also things to use carefully, as are templates, since they turn monsters into elites. The economy of actions has been mentioned many times on these boards (elites and solos generally get less attacks than 2 (or 5) monsters of their level, so they're less dangerous). One side effect of this I haven't seen mentioned as often is that the designers have, in my opinion, given elites and solos too many hps in most cases (probably to compensate for the economy of actions problem). However, just giving a monster more hp doesn't necessarily make it that much more of a threat - in many cases it just makes the fight stretch on after its lost all drama - the elite is the only monster left, you have to hack through another 80 hp, but it has so few actions that it can't really threaten the players.
What this means when picking monsters is that you generally want to stick to normal monsters and minions of a range between n-2 to n+3. If a monster that you want to use doesn't fit there, you probably want to bump its level up or down a bit using the DM's toolbox from the DMG (one of my all-time favorite sections of any DMG ever). The DMG advises not using this to bump a monster up or down more than 5 levels - I would say 4 is actually the maximum ammount of levels you can tweak with this - anything more or less, and you're better off finding a monster of the right level and re-skinning it (or making up a monster from scratch).
Since you're using monsters that are close to the PC's level, you want to out-number them - most of the really good fights I've done use a collection of monsters at or slightly above the PCs level that outnumber the PCs by about 4 or 5. This gives the defender(s) a chance to shine by finding a good spot and locking down most of the monsters, while the back-line characters still have to stay on their toes to avoid the ones who inevitably make it past when the monsters have that great of an advantage of numbers. If you're lucky and play your monsters right, it'll also have a perfect curve of still-living monsters/PC resources - the last 3 zombies are a lot more threatening when everyone has already used their 2nd wind and the cleric is down to single digit hitpoints and is frantically screaming for someone, anyone to stand between him and the zombie 3 squares away from him.
Now of course, you still want to use elites and solos in your game - what would D&D be without at least the occasional dragon fight, right? You just have to put a little more work into these to set these up right. For starters, you probably want to reduce their hitpoints by about 20-25%, though your mileage may vary. Secondly, you need to surround them with a good complement of normal monsters - probably something that is the opposite of their role. Give an artillery/controller elite/solo some brutes up front, give a brute solo some artillery and skirmishers to circle around behind him, etc. It's very rare that you want to actually use a solo as a single monster, as it can easily get boring and repetive. If you do use the solo by itself, make sure to include some dynamic terrain to keep the tenor of the fight changing.
Hope all that helps!
Tip #8) Use more monsters, not less
The math can easily get off/grindy if you use elites or monsters that are much higher level than the PCs. You really want the PCs to have a to-hit chance between 45-60% - even using a "boring" at-will feels a little better if you hit with it. Now obviously to-hits will vary between the party members - a rogue with a dagger is going to hit AC more often than a paladin with an axe, but the general principle holds. On the flip-side, you want your monsters to have a reasonable chance of hitting the PCs as well if you're doing as I recommend and trying to bring a reasonable amount of risk into the encounter.
Elites and Solos (esp Solos) are also things to use carefully, as are templates, since they turn monsters into elites. The economy of actions has been mentioned many times on these boards (elites and solos generally get less attacks than 2 (or 5) monsters of their level, so they're less dangerous). One side effect of this I haven't seen mentioned as often is that the designers have, in my opinion, given elites and solos too many hps in most cases (probably to compensate for the economy of actions problem). However, just giving a monster more hp doesn't necessarily make it that much more of a threat - in many cases it just makes the fight stretch on after its lost all drama - the elite is the only monster left, you have to hack through another 80 hp, but it has so few actions that it can't really threaten the players.
What this means when picking monsters is that you generally want to stick to normal monsters and minions of a range between n-2 to n+3. If a monster that you want to use doesn't fit there, you probably want to bump its level up or down a bit using the DM's toolbox from the DMG (one of my all-time favorite sections of any DMG ever). The DMG advises not using this to bump a monster up or down more than 5 levels - I would say 4 is actually the maximum ammount of levels you can tweak with this - anything more or less, and you're better off finding a monster of the right level and re-skinning it (or making up a monster from scratch).
Since you're using monsters that are close to the PC's level, you want to out-number them - most of the really good fights I've done use a collection of monsters at or slightly above the PCs level that outnumber the PCs by about 4 or 5. This gives the defender(s) a chance to shine by finding a good spot and locking down most of the monsters, while the back-line characters still have to stay on their toes to avoid the ones who inevitably make it past when the monsters have that great of an advantage of numbers. If you're lucky and play your monsters right, it'll also have a perfect curve of still-living monsters/PC resources - the last 3 zombies are a lot more threatening when everyone has already used their 2nd wind and the cleric is down to single digit hitpoints and is frantically screaming for someone, anyone to stand between him and the zombie 3 squares away from him.
Now of course, you still want to use elites and solos in your game - what would D&D be without at least the occasional dragon fight, right? You just have to put a little more work into these to set these up right. For starters, you probably want to reduce their hitpoints by about 20-25%, though your mileage may vary. Secondly, you need to surround them with a good complement of normal monsters - probably something that is the opposite of their role. Give an artillery/controller elite/solo some brutes up front, give a brute solo some artillery and skirmishers to circle around behind him, etc. It's very rare that you want to actually use a solo as a single monster, as it can easily get boring and repetive. If you do use the solo by itself, make sure to include some dynamic terrain to keep the tenor of the fight changing.
Hope all that helps!
Vayden
First Post
Heh, true enough. I've been DMing a tiefling pyromancer wizard for quite a while now, I sort of forgot how good orb wizards can be at de-buffing a solo.
RyvenCedrylle
First Post
Best. Thread. Ever.
One point I feel should be added about the Happy/Sad Warlock earlier:
The description stated that minions were in the Sad Warlock category. I couldn't possibly disagree more. Spending your first round doing nothing but cursing two or three minions is a favorite tactic of mine.
3 Cursed Minions + Wizard's Scorching Burst + Improved Fate of the Void = +6 to any roll I darn well please. Sign me up!
I'll also take 6+ squares of free immediate teleportation (feylock) or a crapton of temporary hitpoints (infernal) any day of the week.
One point I feel should be added about the Happy/Sad Warlock earlier:
The description stated that minions were in the Sad Warlock category. I couldn't possibly disagree more. Spending your first round doing nothing but cursing two or three minions is a favorite tactic of mine.
3 Cursed Minions + Wizard's Scorching Burst + Improved Fate of the Void = +6 to any roll I darn well please. Sign me up!
I'll also take 6+ squares of free immediate teleportation (feylock) or a crapton of temporary hitpoints (infernal) any day of the week.
Curse is 1/round only
On Puget Sound
First Post
Yes, true, until you get the Rod of Cursplosion. My wife's warlock has gotten really scary since she found one. "Oh, no, I'll skip the +1 from that dead minion. Instead, put these poker chips under him, and him, and him, and...." Then she pops Armor of Agathys, blasts the BBEG and stands next to pre-cursed minions every round. I need minions with cold immunity!
TheLordWinter
First Post
A slightly off-topic post, but you wouldn't gain a too many bonus temp. hit points. You'd get an amount equal to your level, and no more.
FrozenChrono
First Post
Some of what has made the fights too easy is that I've had too few opponents in some encounters, or else the fight was by its nature staged in waves (reinforcements joining up after a couple rounds). It's clear to me that I need to pay more attention to the "economy of actions" by using more lower level opponents rather than fewer high level ones. I also need to make sure the foes have some good tactical options themselves. The PC's are good at working together and can probably outthink me when it comes to straight tactics. I need to use my DM powers to set things up with an advantage to the NPC's to start to make up for that, but so far haven't been very effective at it.
The next big encounter will be an ambush while they are inside a house in a remote area. I want to have a mix of foes - one big cleric dude who can heal his allies, some henchmen he hired, maybe a skirmisher/rogue type, and a couple guard drakes. I love guard drakes.
Since they will be in a house, I want there to be 2 doors that the bad guys will bust into simultaneously. One door leads from the outside to the pantry, with a trap door to the root cellar in that room. The PC's could open up the trap door if they want to create an obstacle (pit) and something to push people into. I'll have the usual large fieldstone fireplace in the main room/kitchen area, but it's pretty much just a house, so terrain can't be *too* interesting. I suppose if I have a pot of rendering fat over the fire, that could be spilled all over the floor to create a slippery area of difficult terrain. There will be 2 innocent bystanders present - one of whom can sort of defend himself, the other cannot. Hopefully the group will protect them and not simply allow them to be slain by the bad guys.
The PC's are: A human 2-handed weapon fighter, a genasi assault swordmage, an eladrin taclord, a halfling rogue, and a halfling feylock (all level 2). The taclord is very good at battlefield tactics, and is using his fey step to good advantage in most fights. He's setting up the rogue and fighter with some great flanking and bonuses. The swordmage is *not* very tactically oriented, and will often make suboptimal choices, but my objective is to keep her having fun with her character.
I want to make this a challenging fight where they need to think on their feet and pull out all the stops. Any recommendations?
I noticed this posted a ways back and though you've probably already run the encounter I have some advice to throw out to people running similar encounters.
There's lots of cool stuff you can do with the inside of a house, or any building. Especially with teleportation. Furniture can be used as cover/difficult terrain, light fixtures and other hanging objects can be knocked off the walls to immobilize/damage enemies. Windows can be used to teleport through or just jump through for the ambushers. If the home has multiple stories the second floor can have a balcony over the first floor which would be a great place for ranged attackers to set up with cover, or teleporters to use as an emergency location to retreat to. (your feylock would love it and the swordmage could find it useful as well)
The two innocent bystandards is a great tactical addition to the encounter. I'm curious how it went?
Ds Da Man
First Post
Well we just ran into some of the "grind" that was mentioned. Several trogladytes, and some harpies, + 1 carrion crawler = boring slow grind that never seemed like it was going to end! It may have just been a crapload of bad rolls, but it was so bad we just ended the session afterwards. Every stinkin' trog had 70hp, the harpies were high hp, so too was the CC. Just becuz of this instance, we are going to start trying a 3e if you don't move more then 5' you get a second attack. I mean it was so bad that everyone was almost wanting to scrap 4e. Horrible. Too many powers require a hit, and are one use items. Had it not been for the dwarven paladin weilding a greataxe whippin' out some 20s, we might still be fighting!
